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Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by dwohnitmok on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:37PM (#35048773)
The Taiwanese concept of "unification" is not what you're thinking of.

The Taiwanese faction supporting unification (usually the KMT) does not envision a world where Taiwan becomes a province of the PRC, they envision a world where the ROC governs all current PRC provinces, that is where they are in the seat of power in Beijing. I.e. this is a world where Taiwan invades China, not the other way around.

The opposing faction rejects these ambitions and wants Taiwan to go its own way.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by adastra22 on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:50PM (#35048911)
That was Taiwanese politics in the 90’s. It doesn’t reflect current party policy.
Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by dwohnitmok on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:54PM (#35048962)
As far as I'm aware this is still the official party line of the KMT.

It's just that now the DPP (their opposition) is in power.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by bxtt on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:11PM (#35049163)
My parents are from Taiwan with my moms side hardline KMT govt officials, and Dad is Green Party/DPP - grew up listening about Taiwanese politics my entire life around friends and family.

I’ve never heard of this stance. I’ve only heard of your stance on Reddit and Twitter within the past two years.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by adastra22 on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:10PM (#35050191)
My wife is from Taiwan, so I’m kinda clued into this even if once removed. Doesn’t trump your inside source though. My understanding is that in the last few decades the KMT had been following (in practice at least) a more business-friendly economic and regulatory unification with the mainland. The deals negotiated by the KMT with the PRC that led to the sunflower movement and the rise of the DPP were very much pro-status quo, pro-stability rejection of the historical KMT policy.

The KMT has never officially given up the reconquest position, but it has been decades since that that was anymore than lip service to the one China idea. In practice KMT policies have been pro-unification in the EU or HK sense.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by dwohnitmok on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:19PM (#35050704)
This stance is most recently and prominently known from the 1992 Consensus:

> 中共當局認為『一個中國』即為『中華人民共和國』...,我方則認為『一個中國』應指1912年成立迄今之中華民國

> The CCP authorities believe "One China" to be the "People's Republic of China"..., we believe "One China" should refer to the Republic of China, founded in 1912 and persisting to this day.

and its affirmation in 2012 by the then KMT administration:

> 兩岸確已達成「一中各表」的共識,這是客觀的事實,我們主張的「一中」當然是中華民國。

> The two coasts have already reached a mutual understanding on "One China, Said Differently," of course the "One China" we support is the Republic of China.

From the Taiwanese government MAC: https://www.mac.gov.tw/News_Content.aspx?n=B383123AEADAEE52&...

It's very much the idea that the ROC should control everything.

Now as other comments point out, public perception among KMT detractors is that this is a sham, and even among KMT supporters there's not a clear message on how this situation would ever come about (and the main criticism in Taiwan against the KMT is that the only way that the KMT could ever hope to make this happen and indeed is/was doing in effect is by essentially capitulating to the PRC), but this is what the KMT puts out on official channels on what "reunification" means for the ROC.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by adastra22 on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:17PM (#35050235)
The DPP came into power when the KMT tried to negotiate the first steps towards HK-like reunification though.
Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by ozmodiar on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:56PM (#35048987)
I've never heard this take, even while in Taiwan. They aren't deluded, they know they aren't retaking the mainland. The reason they don't declare themselves a country is because China won't support it and they're worried it would trigger an invasion. China prefers Taiwan be a rebellious province rather than an independent country because it strengthens China's claim to the island. The KMT used to be feeling out a HK like integration with China but I think that's even more dead than it used to be.
Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by tablespoon on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:14PM (#35049204)
>> The Taiwanese faction supporting unification (usually the KMT) does not envision a world where Taiwan is/becomes a province of the PRC, they envision a world where the ROC governs all current PRC provinces, that is where they are in the seat of power in Beijing.

> I've never heard this take, even while in Taiwan. They aren't deluded, they know they aren't retaking the mainland.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's still the KMT's "official" position, and it's probably one they genuinely held for a long time after they retreated to Taiwan. The Taiwan issue is interesting, because China's power and sensitivity means literally none of the important players except China officially says what they really mean, and maintain these ridiculous diplomatic fictions to avoid crossing China's lines.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by brazzy on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:31PM (#35049378)
China absolutely does maintain its own diplomatic fictions.

For example, a Taiwanese person travelling to the PRC needs a "Mainland travel permit for residents of the island of Taiwan", which is most emphatically neither a visa nor a passport despite fulfilling exactly those two functions.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by brazzy on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:41PM (#35049489)
>China prefers Taiwan be a rebellious province rather than an independent country because it strengthens China's claim to the island.

I'm pretty sure that the Chinese government is actually scared shitless that Taiwan declaring independence would reinvigorate independence movements in Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and probably half a dozen more.

A new civil war in China would make WWII look like a minor scuffle.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by tablespoon on Monday March 06, 2023 @10:08PM (#35051050)
> I'm pretty sure that the Chinese government is actually scared shitless that Taiwan declaring independence would reinvigorate independence movements in Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and probably half a dozen more.

Why would they be "scared shitless"? They've demonstrated the ability to crack down hard and defeat those movements. For instance: the Hong Kong protests ended almost immediately once China decided to take the gloves off.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by brazzy on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @05:50AM (#35053880)
A good long look at the history of Chinese civil wars should be enough to scare anyone.

Maybe they could control simultaneous large scale insurrections. But it would be wise not to be overconfident in that regard.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by tablespoon on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @01:54PM (#35059499)
> Maybe they could control simultaneous large scale insurrections. But it would be wise not to be overconfident in that regard.

Why do you think they'd have to deal with any "large scale insurrections"? They easily delt with one HK, once they imposed a Mainland-style security law, because fear evaporated the protests. Those protests also didn't inspire much of a response in the Mainland. They also didn't have to deal with on in Xinjiang, where they implemented so much direct oppression that you'd think they'd have inspired a response if one were possible.

The PRC security apparatus is strong, well organized, and its actions aren't constrained by liberal sensibilities. The PRC population is thoroughly disarmed, disorganized, and dis-informed, so cannot resist it. I think you're indulging in wishful thinking and fantasy.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by nl on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:22PM (#35049293)
Your impressions are all true, but Taiwan hasn't given up formal claim to mainland China.

This is important because it allows the "policy of deliberate ambiguity":

> There is deliberate ambiguity regarding the government of the country of 'China' (as well as what land this country constitutes). Currently, two governments claim legitimate rule and sovereignty over all of China, which they claim includes Mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan, as well as some other islands.

> those from Taiwan who attend the Olympic Games and other various international organizations and events participate under the deliberately ambiguous name of "Chinese Taipei"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_of_deliberate_ambiguity

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by zucker42 on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:06PM (#35049115)
> they envision a world where the ROC governs all current PRC provinces

Is this really true? Sure, recapturing the mainland was the ideology of the KMT at the end of the Chinese Civil War, but KMT politicians would have to be extremely delusional to believe it's possible now. My understanding is that the modern KMT believes in increased economic integration with China and the maintenance of Chinese cultural idenity, while leaving the door open to future reunification under favorable political circumstances. The KMT is definitely considered the "pro-Beijing" major Taiwanese party in the 21st century.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by dwohnitmok on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:36PM (#35050837)
> My understanding is that the modern KMT believes in increased economic integration with China and the maintenance of Chinese cultural idenity, while leaving the door open to future reunification under favorable political circumstances. The KMT is definitely considered the "pro-Beijing" major Taiwanese party in the 21st century.

It's quite difficult to separate out what the KMT really believes from what its detractors say it believes, real differences among its individual members, what it puts out in official statements, and what can be inferred from its actions.

What you're saying is valid, especially the part about not believing it's possible (one thing I didn't emphasize in my original reply is that no one in Taiwan believes that reunification was ever going to happen any time soon, and focused more on just what "reunification" means) but "favorable political circumstances" is doing a lot of work there. That can span the gamut from "the PRC turns into a clone of the ROC and is immediately replaced" to "the ROC disappears altogether."

There are also a lot of people who do view the KMT as toadies of the CCP.

But the official party line unless they've come out with something more recent that I'm missing is that reunification means the ROC controls everything.

My original point was that Taiwanese rhetoric on "reunification" has always been very very different than what reunification has meant for Hong Kong.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by brazzy on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:28PM (#35049348)
My wife is from Taiwan, and what you wrote is a warped understanding of how things were 40 years ago.

The official position of all Taiwanese parties is that Taiwan and China are one nation divided by temporary difficulties, because China has threatened war if they say anything else.

The inofficial position of the DPP (current government party) is that of fucking course Taiwan is de facto a separate sovereign country, and we like it that way, so let's not do anything to risk it.

The inofficial position of the KMT is that they are in the pocket of the CCP, and a big fan of every possible concession that won't scare their voters too much.

Re:Taiwan is a vital island that is under serious threat by stjohnswarts on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:10PM (#35049761)
Anyone who thinks China's CCP will allow an autonomous Taiwan is living in a fantasy land.