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Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by gxt on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:15PM (#35048515)
How does that protect privacy of the private network? I don't want to divulge any information about internal topology.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by adgjlsfhk1 on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:38PM (#35048782)
what do you mean by topology? the only information leaked would be the number of computers making requests.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by Faark on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:48PM (#35048889)
And what computer is making what requests. Now that i think about it, this cloud be the reason why youtube started making recommendations based on stuff i just watched in private browser tabs...
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by josephg on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:31PM (#35049380)
I have multiple computers in the house, mostly not logged in to Google. YouTube recommendations spill between devices all the time - like, if I watch a video on one device, I’ll see the same video recommended on another. Or if my partner watches something, YouTube will recommend it to me.

They’re obviously doing recommendations based on IP address. (And this is purely over ipv4).

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by throw0101c on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:35PM (#35049945)
> They’re obviously doing recommendations based on IP address. (And this is purely over ipv4).

I have IPv6 at home and connect to Youtube over IPv6 (that's generally the default behaviour on macOS and many other OSes). I reboot my DSL modem-router every night and get a new IPv4 address and new IPv6 prefix every day.

Now: I live in Ontario, and my ISP is based in Ontario, but they serve clients in Quebec. Every so often, when surfing Youtube, I get served ads in French because according to my (IPv6) address I am "in" Quebec.

And, while I am not logged into any Google service, I do not block cookies. So even with cookies, Youtube seems to be fairly dumb about serving ads correctly just based on IP addresses (or at least IPv6 addresses and/or IPv6 prefixes), since cookies don't seem to be useful.

So I'm not quite sure about what people are talking about when they say "IPv6 tracking" if even Google/Youtube can't get their act together.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by zeristor on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @04:00AM (#35053211)
I live just outside London and have been wondering why I’ve been getting ads from More4 for Wales and Cardiff.

Iechyd Da!

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by Springtime on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:10PM (#35050635)
> They’re obviously doing recommendations based on IP address

eBay uses IPs showing content, too. I see 'items you've viewed recently' show items I've never looked at, since when on a mobile connection my IP changes fairly frequently and eBay carries over the recently viewed state from whoever else was previously using that IP.

It had puzzled me until I came across this[1] eBay topic where others had experienced this, from shared offices to spouses, etc.

[1] https://community.ebay.com/t5/Share-eBay-Technical-Issues/Re...

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by throitallaway on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:52PM (#35048940)
Look at what Android does with MAC address randomization on wireless networks. We will probably see something similar with IPv6.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by CaliforniaKarl on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:07PM (#35049121)
> We will probably see something similar with IPv6.

It's been available for some time: https://www.internetsociety.org/resources/deploy360/2014/pri...

On my macOS system, I currently have four IPv6 IPs (excluding the link-local IP), all of which are random.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by gerdesj on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:47PM (#35049545)
Not just Android. My laptop does it too (NetworkManager). That's just IPv4 on devices designed to travel so it seems a fair thing to do. Bloody pain to diagnose why a static DHCP lease isn't working the first time, after that you find the mechanisms to turn it off. Nearly everything does it for IPv6, for a given value of everything!

For decades we have generally allowed all outbound and worried and fretted about and filtered inbound. I think it is time for us all to get a grip and do the job properly. However, with the delights of DNS over http and the like, the horse has not only bolted but has a new paint job, far better shoes than you can afford, eats grass that was prepared by a Michelin starred chef and belongs to someone else now.

We all need to be far more sophisticated about how traffic (knowledge/ideas/data) flows in and out of our networks/lives. Packet filtering is just one tool in the box and worrying about an addressing scheme being global (IPv6) instead of a weird hybrid (IPv4) is completely missing the real issue stabbing you in the nadgers.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by CaliforniaKarl on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:50PM (#35048916)
That's a very strong claim to make. I'd appreciate if you could provide a source to that statement!
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by ipaddr on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:04PM (#35049089)
Your chrome build id is available in both areas. Not really a secret.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by CaliforniaKarl on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:09PM (#35049139)
I'd be really surprised if I've got a chrome build ID on my browser.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by lloeki on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:50PM (#35048918)
that's not even true with slaac temporary (a.k.a privacy) or secured addresses.

the only thing you'd "leak" is the prefix, which is no different than a IPv4 WAN address that you'd get with a v4 NAT.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by gxt on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:52PM (#35048931)
That is information about the topology.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by CaliforniaKarl on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:25PM (#35049322)
It's fairly limited, without a lot of time and effort, or information from inside the network. I assume you're not acting as an AS, doing BGP, etc; and that you're just getting an IP allocation from a single ISP. In that case, you're probably getting an entire IPv6 subnet (like a /48) allocated to you. Ideally, you make the entire subnet available to your systems.

Assuming you block unsolicited packets (that is, packets not related to existing connections/streams) at your border (the connection to your ISP), then outsiders won't be able to use tools like traceroute to learn anything. All that an outsider has is an IPv6 IP, and since you're not doing BGP with anything, all they'll know to do is to send the traffic to your ISP.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by throw0101c on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:30PM (#35049904)
> How does that protect privacy of the private network? I don't want to divulge any information about internal topology.

I'm curious to know: what (attack) do you hope to protect against?

I would think that most attacks come in two fashions: the first being that you run a service of some kind and that there's some JSP/PHP/whatever exploit for a public facing service, and someone does a 'magic' PUT/GET that has the application server execute some code, which downloads a larger malware attack package. After which point the black hats start scanning from the inside.

The second being that someone clicks on a link in a phishing e-mail or executes some attachment, after which malware code starts scanning from the inside and phones home.

(A third being an insider attack, who presumably know about internal topology.)

What attack are you thinking to protect against by hiding subnet and VLAN topology?

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by gxt on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:49PM (#35050033)
This isn't about an attack scenario from this vector, it's about preventing reconnaissance that might yield helpful results to an adversary that can exploit it via any other vector.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by throw0101c on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:21PM (#35050267)
> […] that can exploit it via any other vector.

And what are those vector(s)?

Besides compromising a machine that is already inside per the above (which can then do scanning / lateral moves), or perhaps physically getting inside the premises (in which case a scanner can be physically installed to examine the network), what attack are you protecting against?

Can you give me a link about an attack that knowing the topology of the network ahead of time would allow, but that not knowing would prevent?

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by Retric on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:17PM (#35050689)
An example of security being sidestepped is Network intrusion detection. An adversary who knows your network architecture can avoid poking around your network which looks really suspicious.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by zamnos on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @12:16AM (#35051844)
Just because you've popped a box on the inside doesn't mean you automatically know everything about the network. It doesn't give you a mirrored port on the network switch. It doesn't mean ICMP is enabled, it doesn't automatically tell you what ports are open or what they serve. And any decent security team is going to see your nmap blast in the IDS and kick that box in jail.

Seems intellectually dishonest not to acknowledge that making things easier, just y'know, makes things easier. Keeping attackers, who want to do you harm, in the dark as much as possible seems important to me.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by bert64 on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @09:00AM (#35055390)
IPv6 actually makes such attacks more difficult, not less.

An attacker looking to be stealthy is not going to blast the network with nmap...

ARP is broadcast, NDP is solicited node multicast so simply by passively listening on the network you will discover nodes in the same layer 2 segment, with v6 and properly configured switches your passive discovery will be a lot more limited.

Other passive techniques would be monitoring things like DNS, and things the host you've compromised is actively communicating with. This isn't any different regardless of the protocol used.

You can also actively communicate with services like DNS or Active Directory and query information about the network, depending on your level of risk.

Just knowing the in-use IPv6 block is useless, the blocks are massive so even just identifying active hosts in a single known IPv6 block is a lot harder than simply scanning the entire RFC1918 legacy address space.

For active discovery, IPv6 is harder to attack - you can't scan the entire address block looking for hosts. The fact that such scans should be detected is exactly the same for either protocol. You also have to consider response time and what an attacker may be able to achieve before your response kicks in.

IPv6 makes it harder for attackers, not easier.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by btgeekboy on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:27PM (#35050763)
Correct. If I talk to service A and I see an address that’s in the same /64 as service B, it’s unlikely there’s a firewall between the two. Two different /56 or /48? Probably a different site.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by foepys on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:30PM (#35051565)
DNS rebinding could be one attack scenario.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by yrro on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @02:40PM (#35060123)
See RFC 8981 (and that which it made obsolete, RFC 4941).