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Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by tenebrisalietum on Monday March 06, 2023 @10:57AM (#35042539)
> I don't want anything on my network to be globally routable.

Then... don't route anything on your network.

NAT is address translation, not routing.

NAT makes it difficult for you to host services on your network, forcing dependency on cloud services, and when ISPs do it (CGNAT), it makes it just about impossible unless you want to thread your traffic back through a third-party service. If you want a good chance of keeping some semblance of an Internet around that isn't dominated by huge centralized services, the cargo cult of "NAT is security" needs to die hard.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by michaelt on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:14AM (#35042770)
Presumably what thesuitonym means is:

There's a bunch of hassle involved in deploying IPv6.

The main benefit of IPv6 is providing routable addresses for home users, thus avoiding CGNAT.

But zealous firewalling and the rise of mobile devices mean these days almost everything is sent over HTTPS to a cloud server. I haven't had software ask me to open a port on my router in a decade or more.

Why incur the costs of adopting IPv6 if the benefits won't be any use?

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by davikr on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:25AM (#35042906)
To "avoid domination by huge centralized services", of course. What if you want to run something like a website from your own IP, but you can't because you're behind CGNAT?
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by wankle on Monday March 06, 2023 @04:59PM (#35048302)
I use a public VPS and Wireguard. Costs $3.50 for the VPS which has a static IP. I host on my laptop. I can take my laptop anywhere in the world there's an Internet connection and my email and web sites continue to work right from the same VPS IP because my laptop connects to the Wireguard server on my VPS when it comes up.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by lmm on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:25PM (#35049325)
That $3.50 will go up and up as IPv4 addresses get scarcer.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by sgjohnson on Thursday March 09, 2023 @05:46AM (#35080034)
Hetzner already charges €2.50/monthly for the IPv4 address alone.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by unethical_ban on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:38AM (#35043074)
If home router manufacturers would get their shit together, IPv6 would not be hard to deploy. I get it, it's chicken and egg, but nothing about IPv6 is inherently more difficult than IPv4 other than the length of the address.

The reason IPv6 on a home network is still difficult is because the routers everyone buys at Best Buy still blow at supporting IPv6. Ubiquiti blows at supporting IPv6. It is laziness and/or incompetence of device manufacturers, primarily, holding us back. (and incompetence around IPv6 in general - I talked to a network guy at a large company recently and they were deploying /58s. WHY?!)

The benefits of IPv6 may not be just for you - it's for the planet, it's for the developing nations, it's for the future where IPv4 does not cut it. It's bigger than your home network.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by wankle on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:02PM (#35048329)
IPv4 cuts it everywhere. IPv6 does not do anything to save the planet. IPv6 does have privacy concerns stated by many on this page. IPv6 could be shut down tomorrow and the Internet would continue working well.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by CircleSpokes on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:04PM (#35050136)
No it wouldn't. Basically all mobile networks would break and have to do even more layers of NAT to meet demand.

> IPv6 does not do anything to save the planet.

The world doesn't have enough IPV4 addresses. It literally solves the problem. It is crazy to me so many people here are arguing for multileveled NAT instead of the obvious solution we have had for 20 years.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by wankle on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:05PM (#35073333)
> The world doesn't have enough IPV4 addresses.

If 8 billion people wanted to host their own email and web, yes, we'd not have enough addresses for each person to have one. That isn't the case though. It will never be the case. If we look into the future and say well in 2023 5% of the world's population ran their own email and web for personal or business purposes and that number were to grow by 5% every year then in 20 years we would run out. That's a worse case, contrived scenario but even in that case, we'd still have 20 years to come up with something better than IPv6 that truly respects privacy and doesn't track each person.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by sgjohnson on Thursday March 09, 2023 @05:44AM (#35080019)
The world has been out of IPv4 addresses for more than a decade. Which is horrible news for competition alone.

Try starting a new ISP. You’ll either do CGNAT on a single /24 of v4 space, or you’ll have to spend tens of millions for some pointless, legacy IP addresses.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by tenebrisalietum on Thursday March 09, 2023 @11:49AM (#35083346)
I don't think EUI-64 being built into link-local fe80 addresses is a privacy issue. Link-local addresses don't get routed, so nothing outside of that network will see or know about them. As far as the router itself, e.g. your ISPs router, it can already gather MAC addresses if it wanted to, so IPv6 using the MAC to generate link-local addresses doesn't add or remove to that situation.

CGNAT is not the Internet working well. CGNAT makes you have to have your ISPs permission and coordination to originate outgoing traffic--imagine if you had to ask the power company for permission to operate each electrical device in your house.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by BlueTemplar on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:49PM (#35051701)
What I don't understand is why governments seemingly ignore this problem ??

Look at what they did with broadcast digital TV : it was announced that it would be illegal in a couple of years to sell hardware not compatible with the new standard, then a couple of years later on illegal to sell hardware compatible with the old standard...

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by bert64 on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @09:50AM (#35055939)
Some are... China, India, Israel all mandate IPv6 support from ISPs in their territory and the equipment they provide to users, as do some others.

The US has mandated IPv6 support for federal contracts since 2009, although they don't get involved outside of those directly providing services to the government itself. They now have plans to go IPv6-only, and eliminate the use of legacy IP within the federal government.

Allocation of legacy address space was always based on first come first served, so developed countries got the lions share of address space and left developing countries with scraps. This creates a severe inequality, and holds developing countries back. This is also why India and China are leading, as they have a huge disparity between their population and the number of legacy addresses available.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by BlueTemplar on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @10:11AM (#35056175)
Yeah, though I've heard that Africa is being left out, once again ?

(Though the sooner we ban IPv4, the sooner they will stop using it too...)

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by tenebrisalietum on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:26AM (#35042922)
Another reason is that NAT is making IPv4 live longer than it should, making IPv4 addresses more expensive. Maybe you don't want to host cloud services from your home, but if IPv4 addresses start costing millions of dollars (I know blocks of them can go for that much--if we're already there do you want to go further?), that drives up the cost for anyone using the Internet even if you are super okay with CG-NAT (which you shouldn't be).

IPv6 will fix that.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by xjay on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:43AM (#35043132)
The sad part to me is that the original IP header included variable-length addresses up to 128 bits, using two 4-bit fields called Source Address Length (SAL), and Destination Address Length (DAL). [1]

Early hardware implementations could have settled on 32-bit, but 48-bit would make more sense to be in line with EUI-48/MAC-48 (ethernet frame). The world could then gradually upgrade hardware over the decade to handle a larger address.

[1] https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien28.pdf

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by AtlasBarfed on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:10PM (#35048448)
I've always posited that web services didn't become widespread because of the church of REST, or even that the HTTP protocol is that amazing.

It's because you could get through the firewall without a four month review with the firewall team.

Well, and you could reuse web tools and software. Ok, that's probably it, but the firewall convenience is DEFINITELY a thing.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by bert64 on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @09:44AM (#35055864)
Pushing all your traffic through a third party cloud server causes a lot of problems.

It costs that third party real money to run that server...

What happens when they decide to shut if off because they no longer want to bear the costs? Your applications are a ticking timebomb...

What about privacy? What if the operator of that server decides to fund it through selling your data?

Sending your traffic through a third party server adds latency, sometimes a LOT of latency if that server is far away. This is very bad for certain latency sensitive things (gaming, calls etc).

If you're dependent on a third party server then you're screwed if it goes down, even if your own connection is fine.

Doing away with that and going back to peer to peer is MUCH better in most cases.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by tinus_hn on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:28AM (#35042939)
With NAT it is impossible to make a mistake that causes machines with a private address to become reachable to the internet. That is a reality that is not going anywhere, no matter if you like it or not, no matter if you think it is stupid or not.
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by unethical_ban on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:40AM (#35043094)
Every home router could be built with a default deny inbound for traffic, with big flashing lights saying "do not override this".

IPv6 has private addressing and a form of NAT as well, were it to be the will of router mfg'ers and network admins. No need to stay on a legacy protocol.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by tenebrisalietum on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:42PM (#35045584)
UPnP?

Also STUN makes your private addresses reachable without you making any mistake at all.

Your comment is a good example of the NAT cargo cult mentality that is damaging to the Internet.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by tinus_hn on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:33PM (#35049923)
Similarly, your comment is a good example of the anti NAT cargo cult mentality that people think is smart but really isn’t.

The reality is that NAT has greatly improved the security of the internet, because before NAT people were exposing everything, including services like Windows file sharing, to the internet. NAT enabled those people to use multiple devices in their home and in return prevented them from unwittingly hosting things to the internet, which causes them to be hacked and turned into bots that harass the rest of the internet. Yes that still happens but not at the scale it happened before everyone was behind a NAT perimeter. If you want to see what could happen look up the SQL Slammer worm and imagine what could have happened if such a worm would have targeted a service more common than SQL Server.

It’s really nice to be able to host things on a consumer connection but it requires thought and management that most consumers just can’t and won’t care to provide and the damage they can cause is not only to themselves but to the rest of the internet as well. This capability really is better off by default.

And all those handwavy ‘workarounds’ for the ‘cargo cult mentality’, you typically can’t tell everyone on your network how to manage their computer to ‘just have their services listen on the local address’ and you can’t ‘just change the defaults of all routers’. But NAT makes it impossible for the default to be wrong and that is its great advantage.

Sure NAT has a lot of disadvantages and breaks the original idea of the internet with every host equally able to host services. But just as Postel’s law just doesn’t work out, every host being able to host services doesn’t work out. Because the internet is not a playground full of friendly colleagues and hasn’t been for a long time. It’s a war zone that requires strong, watertight defenses by default. And if you’re smart and careful enough to safely host a service to the internet, surely you can manage to forward a port.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by gegtik on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:54PM (#35051726)
3 cheers for useful defaults
Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by bert64 on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @10:01AM (#35056066)
Slammer (and other worms) propagated heavily despite NAT. If anything NAT made it worse, because once a single internal host got infected the worm now has a predictable and well known address space to scan for other devices it can infect.

NAT created a false sense of security, while also breaking a lot of other things. It is quite easy for the defaults to be wrong, you can end up with all kinds of unexpected scenarios which make internal hosts reachable - eg outbound traffic could open up inbound traffic on the same port from any source not just the one initially communicated with, UPNP can result in ports being opened, NAT slipstream attacks are another possibility, not to mention the fact that "not routable" and "there is no route" are two different things - someone who is on an adjacent network to your wan interface (ie other customers of the same isp) can easily direct traffic to your internal address space.

What reduced external attacks was not NAT, it was improved defaults - such as windows including a software firewall which blocks inbound connections by default, and unix based systems no longer shipping with large number of services (telnet, rpc, finger etc) enabled by default.

Consumer routers with IPv6 support don't allow unsolicited inbound traffic by default. Good luck scanning an IPv6 block in any case.

Slammer and other worms scanned sequential legacy IP addresses, including the well known and predictable RFC1918 space. This method simply couldn't work with IPv6 because the address space is too large, you would be flooding out huge amounts of traffic for years on end before you happened to hit upon an active device.

IPv6 is better, not worse.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by tinus_hn on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @08:03AM (#35068486)
Once an unreachable host magically got infected, it scanned the entire IP address space but hey, it was worse because some hosts were in a predefined part.

NAT is bad because somehow magically a machine with an unroutable address can become routable. Because magically UPnP forwards every protocol in existence, not only a select group of programs that explicitly support it. And of course a connection opening up a theoretical hole to a specified host is just as bad (actually worse!) as opening it up to the whole internet.

Yet all routers have the right defaults and nobody ever makes a mistake. Oh and there’s so many addresses it’s so obscure it’s secure, and noone would guess to scan one’s own subnet in the absence of NAT.

These arguments are really grasping for straws, mostly nonsensical and the rest describes attacks so impractical they are pretty much impossible to carry out and are so much harder than simply sending a thousand emails with a link to an executable that pretty much nobody ever bothers.

Note I never said that IPv6 is worse, I said that NAT has relevant advantages and mostly irrelevant disadvantages. I really don’t care ftp doesn’t work with NAT.

Re:I spent a week without IPv4 to understand IPv6 transition... by kazen44 on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:58PM (#35047491)
With Ipv6 this is even easier.

You simply do not host services you do want public on your global unicast address but use a private/site local address instead.