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Re:The moral case against equity language by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 03, 2023 @12:43AM (#35006241)
> Define woman simply

Define love. Define consciousness.

These words are fractals, simultaneously simple and complex. It’s alarming that we’re unable, as a matter of discourse, to accept this useful ambiguity anymore.

At its simplest, a woman is a person who identifies as such. At among its most complex, it’s an empowered expression of femininity. That there isn’t a single definition doesn’t make the word bad, it makes it human.

Re:The moral case against equity language by jimbokun on Friday March 03, 2023 @01:40AM (#35006554)
The most basic rule of making a usable definition of a word, is that it cannot be self referential.
Re:The moral case against equity language by undersuit on Friday March 03, 2023 @12:50AM (#35006271)
This isn't a simple definition!

But I'm OK with this. One of the original people demanding "define a woman" was a law maker. If we're making laws that use the word woman we need to have a stringent definition.

Re:The moral case against equity language by dragonwriter on Friday March 03, 2023 @12:55AM (#35006290)
> One of the original people demanding “define a woman” was a law maker. If we’re making laws that use the word woman we need to have a stringent definition.

We don’t (and, contrary to a sibling comment, this is not particular to common law, it applies in civil law jurisdictions as well, though it may be more true in the common law). If every word in law needed a “stringent definition”, the law would be so full of definitions you’d never be able to find the rules that actually apply them to the real world. Laws sometimes need stringent definitions, and they sometimes need disambiguation between plausible alternatives that don’t actually require a stringent definition, and sometimes they get by just fine with no definition at all.

Re:The moral case against equity language by jimbokun on Friday March 03, 2023 @01:41AM (#35006562)
Um, court cases very often hinge on how to define the words used in writing laws.
Re:The moral case against equity language by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 03, 2023 @12:51AM (#35006274)
> we're making laws that use the word woman we need to have a stringent definition

Not ex ante. That’s the strength of common law. If you have a problem with this, consider why we need laws which define womanhood. (Yes, I am an ERA proponent.)

Re:The moral case against equity language by undersuit on Friday March 03, 2023 @12:55AM (#35006285)
I don't know why we need laws that define woman or womanhood. Would you offer an example?

An ERA proponent is in reference to an Equal Rights Amendment?

Re:The moral case against equity language by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 03, 2023 @12:58AM (#35006306)
> don't know why we need laws that define woman or womanhood

I don’t. And I’m struggling to play devil’s advocate, which is uncommon.

> ERA proponent is in reference to an Equal Rights Amendment

Yes.

Re:The moral case against equity language by yibg on Friday March 03, 2023 @01:59AM (#35006653)
It's a useless definition. A woman is someone who identifies as a woman. Circular definition much? Makes the word pretty much meaningless.
Re:The moral case against equity language by undersuit on Friday March 03, 2023 @02:13PM (#35013756)
Good. I don't see a need for an outside authority to define whether I'm a man or a woman. I am my own person and I can make my own decisions.

Is my gender identity invalid if I'm not someone who fits into the gender norms? Am I a woman if Customer Support thinks my voice is feminine?

Re:The moral case against equity language by sorokod on Friday March 03, 2023 @04:36AM (#35007569)
a woman is a person who identifies as such

This is circular an so, not a deninition. Not a problem as long as this is part of an internal personal model. It is a problem when reasoning about social structures.

Re:The moral case against equity language by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 03, 2023 @09:58AM (#35010419)
> is circular an so, not a deninition

It’s Cartesian, not circular. There’s a difference. We don’t need it rigorously defined for it to have meaning—that’s the point. (This does make it a word incompatible with precise endeavours like lawmaking.)

Re:The moral case against equity language by sorokod on Friday March 03, 2023 @11:16AM (#35011494)
You did not define, rigorously or otherwise. As to needs, when we turn to conversations on how to structure a society, subjective meaning is not sufficent - definitions are required.
Re:The moral case against equity language by JumpCrisscross on Friday March 03, 2023 @08:07PM (#35017090)
> subjective meaning is not sufficent - definitions are required

This is the flaw. It isn’t. It is required if we will write rules with respect to it. But there is another way. Forcing everything into an objective definition is the source of our divides, not a solution to anything.

Statesmen, from Cicero to Hamilton to Obama, understood this. But there is an emerging tendency to treat every system as technical, and that is destructive.

Re:The moral case against equity language by sorokod on Saturday March 04, 2023 @06:29AM (#35020084)
Just came back from my son's Judo competition. The children are paired by age and weight - girls separately from the boys. What is your take on this arrangement?
Re:The moral case against equity language by JumpCrisscross on Saturday March 04, 2023 @10:19AM (#35021393)
> girls separately from the boys. What is your take on this arrangement?

That it’s irrelevant to the definition of a woman. That’s the strength of fuzzy definitions.

When separating the kids, did anyone formally define what a girl or a boy is? Did every parent in that room need to resolve every edge case to their implied definitions ex ante? Could you guarantee conflict by forcing a formal definition on that group, even if it results in the same practical outcome the implied, unsaid definition yielded and which was peacefully accepted by the group? No, no and, of course, yes.

Re:The moral case against equity language by sorokod on Saturday March 04, 2023 @11:57AM (#35022309)
Please stop calling "a woman is a person who identifies as such" a fuzzy definition. It is to definition what "alternative fact" is to a fact.

Now, you are right that for the purposes of this event no one defined what a girl or a boy is. The reason it is so (as is the case with many other social conventions) is because neither the participants nor the organizers challenge the classification.

There is no doubt that had it been challenged strongly and frequently enough, the implicit definitions would become explicit and formal.

Re:The moral case against equity language by JumpCrisscross on Saturday March 04, 2023 @07:23PM (#35025881)
> had it been challenged strongly and frequently enough, the implicit definitions would become explicit and formal

By people without any civics background, yes. That we lack leaders who push back against overspecification is a cultural failing, collectively, and an individual failing among those who don’t understand the point of nuance.