News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by TeMPOraL on Thursday March 02, 2023 @04:02AM (#34993599)
Yeah, I hate timezones with a passion but the more I think about them, the more I recognize they're the least bad option available. They correctly optimize for making most common cases trivial, while rare cases relatively easy.

I think it needs to be said here: cross-timezone scheduling and datetime math are extremely rare relative to people's daily experience. It may not be obvious to us here, because we're much more likely to be dealing with the unusual case - building distributed systems, having international users/customers, working for multinational companies or cooperating with companies from other countries, etc. Almost nobody ever does that, and it makes no sense to make everyone do extra mental arithmetic when thinking or talking about other places, just for the sake of a minority of white-collar workers who can't be arsed to add a second column to their Outlook calendar, or double-check when they have a Zoom meeting.

Getting rid of timezones would make most of everyday matters location-dependent. Timezones allow us to use the same numbering of times of day regardless of where any of us lives. 08:00 is morning. 22:00 is night. 12:00-14:00 is around when people have lunch. Etc. We can talk about our days in all kinds of ways (movies, plays, songs, novels, guides, etc.), retaining a precise numerical scale (vs. much less useful terms like "morning" or "afternoon"), and everyone everywhere can relate. Getting rid of the timezones makes this impossible.

Note the difference between talking about daily experience with people around the world, vs. doing things in sync with people around the world. Timezones make the former trivial, and the latter easy. Removing timezones makes the latter trivial, but the former hard. Hard enough that people would quickly recreate timezones for convenience.

Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by mschuster91 on Thursday March 02, 2023 @04:23AM (#34993740)
The worst problem with timezones IMO is that they are way too big [1], compared to what they should be if the world were equally divided into 24 hour "strips". Europe for example has CET which stretches all the way west to Spain, despite UTC+1 ending somewhere along the French-German border - so Spain and France are 1 hour "ahead" despite not needing to.

[1] https://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/

Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by prmoustache on Thursday March 02, 2023 @05:38AM (#34994215)
Add to that cultural and climate differencies and it makes it even harder to schedule things. Like there is not a huge difference between France and Spain in term of solar hour, but rhythm is different because people in the south are used to take their lunch break when at the hottest moment of the day and tend to stay outside and up longer because they are most pleasant in the summer.

Most people in europe keep scheduling meetings between 14 and 16 which is pretty much lunch time here in Spain so most of the time I am having lunch during my video calls or take a quick bite in between calls without a proper break.

Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by Kwpolska on Thursday March 02, 2023 @06:10AM (#34994427)
This might be a “problem” for people who like arbitrary lines to define their lives. Keeping most of Europe on one time zone lets people from different neighbouring and culturally close countries work together without needing to think about time zones.
Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by ElectricalUnion on Thursday March 02, 2023 @11:03AM (#34997386)
If keeping most of Europe on one timezone lets people work together without needing to think about time zones, so does unifying the entire earth on a single TAI or UTC "timezone".
Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by Kwpolska on Thursday March 02, 2023 @12:26PM (#34998773)
No, that does not scale. Sunrise and sunset are at very similar times in CET countries, meaning they have similar business hours, and I can set up a meeting between Spain, Poland, and the UK (which is on UTC/BST, but that’s close enough) at 11:00 CET and everyone will be fine with it and well awake at that time. If we extended CET around the world, and wanted someone in New York to join our meeting, they would be furious because they would need to ~~wake up~~ (edit: be awake and at a computer) at 5:00 ex-EST, or 1.5 hours before sunrise.
Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by zamnos on Thursday March 02, 2023 @12:58PM (#34999259)
Quick, someone tell China this won't work! China has only one official time zone, China Standard Time (CST) which is centered on Beijing, which is on the east side of the country. Some how, the country still hasn't fallen apart since this was established in 1949. Prior to this, China had 5 time zones.
Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by Kwpolska on Thursday March 02, 2023 @03:04PM (#35001189)
Do you have an example that is not from an oppressive regime that does not care about the happiness of its citizens? Do you have an example that does not have an unofficial time zone [0] observed by people in the easternmost part of the country?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_Time

Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by tengwar2 on Thursday March 02, 2023 @06:38AM (#34994578)
I'd say that the biggest problem with time zones is that most people confuse them with time offsets (which unfortunately is what you are doing). A time zone is a geographical area. That area can run on different time offsets - "times". So the UK runs on UTC in winter, and UTC+1 in summer. It's wrong to think of the UK as being in the "UTC time zone".

This may seem pedantic, but the confusion causes real problems with software.

Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by mschuster91 on Thursday March 02, 2023 @08:48AM (#34995552)
> I'd say that the biggest problem with time zones is that most people confuse them with time offsets (which unfortunately is what you are doing).

The problem is, say, I have a colleague in Spain. I ask him for a meeting today at 0800 CET, which for him means sunrise was at 0746, while I in Munich have had sunrise and got woken up by the cats at 0652.

Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by BurningFrog on Thursday March 02, 2023 @05:54AM (#34994318)
As the world becomes more global, coordinating with people in other times zones will become the norm, not the exception.

I expect time zones will fade away then.

No need to rush it prematurely though

Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by zvr on Thursday March 02, 2023 @06:28AM (#34994525)
I cannot imagine a world where "the norm" of human interaction would be with people in other times zones.
Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by Tor3 on Thursday March 02, 2023 @08:27AM (#34995368)
Huh? For me it is, and has been like that for a very long time. I work with various customers throughout the day, and they are in various different timezones. When I'm not working I almost daily interact with family, again different timezone. I am always aware of various timezones.
Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by wasmitnetzen on Thursday March 02, 2023 @10:23AM (#34996764)
Is this the norm for those people too, or are you basically the only one they ever talk to where timezone matters?
Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by Tor3 on Thursday March 02, 2023 @01:24PM (#34999630)
They do indeed talk to people in other timezones as well. We may have online meetings sometimes, with at least three timezones involved.

I can't see how one would only contact in touch with people in a single timezone, unless one only wants to have contact with people in continental Europe (excluding e.g. Portugal and Finland), or people in a single timezone in the US. Timezones are everywhere. The earth is a sphere, so.. can't be avoided.

Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by TeMPOraL on Thursday March 02, 2023 @08:07PM (#35004468)
If your work involves coordinating across timezones daily, you're part of the small minority cases I was talking about. Offline world is still mostly local, and almost all interactions almost everyone has, online and offline, are local too.
Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by Tor3 on Friday March 03, 2023 @02:40AM (#35006879)
Firstly, that's not a small minority case, and secondly, in my small town there are people from around 100 nations, and they have family and friends from all over. And, as I said, even central Europe has 3 timezones just inside EU. It's not like most people only have contact with their 50 neighbours, and never go anywhere. When I talk with friends, timezones come up reasonably often. It's not something people can walk around and not be aware of.
Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by BurningFrog on Thursday March 02, 2023 @01:34PM (#34999768)
That's just the online world.

Most people we interact with on this site are likely in a different timezone, for example.

Re:Europe pushing for lunar time zone by Tor3 on Thursday March 02, 2023 @08:24AM (#34995339)
I have no issues with timezones at all. Morning will be in the morning (as per the clock), wherever you are, and timezones are reasonably well defined. Without timezones you would still need a system defining what the local equivalent of "morning" or "evening" or "working hours" is, in whatever town the person you're calling is in - and I feel we'll be going back to how things worked before the railway chaos forced the introduction of timezones.

What I hate is DST. That's not only useless, it's problematic. Heck, my old mother never managed to handle the change this last fall, in her nursing home - meals didn't come at the optimal time, she got undernourished, it destroyed her sleep cycles, and her health went all downhill.