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Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by bombcar on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @04:32PM (#34988641)
There are two types of research. There's the "academic" style where you know what you want and you want to get it, where online materials shine.

Then there's the "browsing" type of research where you have an idea of what you want, and you go to a book on that, and you look at the books around it on the shelves; that's something you get from a library (or bookstore) that doesn't really happen online.

Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by crazygringo on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @04:42PM (#34988745)
It's trivial to browse titles online if there's an interface for it.

In fact, I find browsing related titles on Amazon to be a tremendously quicker way to find related books than organzed by Dewey Decimal or similar at a library -- because collaborative recommendations, number of reviews, and actual review content are such strong signals that are totally absent in a library.

Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by mdp2021 on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @04:56PM (#34988906)
> to find relevant material

There you show the possibility of having selected an activity among many possible.

Your expression suggests /to seek/, ex IE sag, "to track", which is not /to search/, ex Lat circare, "look around" - to explore.

Parts of the exploration (the complementary part of exploitation) is benefited by having a large amount of material in front of you, browsable. And having thousands of volumes at hand and immediately remains invaluable; electronic experience remains different.

Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by crazygringo on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @04:59PM (#34988931)
I disagree -- electronic experience isn't different.

You can build any kind of interface for electronic "looking around" or "exploring" that you like.

While in a physical library, you are limited entirely to a single fixed physical layout.

There is nothing a physical library can do for exploring that can't be replicated on a computer. But a computer can add all sorts of incredible improvements.

And why would you only want to have thousands of volumes at hand for immediate access, when you could have millions instead?

Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by mdp2021 on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @05:13PM (#34989080)
> I disagree ... experience isn't different

Oh but you mustn't - because it is, it physically is. To simulate it, you would have to build a virtual reality system with a staggering resolution and FOV. Because a sauna and a jacuzzi are "not different" only to one perspective - and what is highlighted is the other one. You may say that one can get contented with one of them ways - and we are replying that it is not necessary. ...You can have both.

> And why would you only want to have thousands of volumes at hand for immediate access, when you could have millions instead

First of all, "Real" book repostitories can be in the order of the hundreds of thousands. Bookstores of that magnitude still exist (though rare), and libraries of the magnitude of millions are available.

Contextually, practically instead: this side of the Atlantic many publishers work through collections - so, when you wanted to e.g. search through the Poetry collection of publisher Alpha, you will have in front of you a few hundreds or thousands items, publication #1 to #123 or #1 to #1234 for the whole publishing effort, curated by experts within the publishing house. I.e. you will have the complete set in front of you. (This is more valid for special locations than in general - in libraries, the Dewey system tends to break it.)

Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by crazygringo on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @05:32PM (#34989260)
> ...You can have both.

But at what cost?

Frankly, I don't want my taxpayer dollars or university tuition subsidizing the miniscule number of people who both want the "romance" of the stacks and actually use them regularly, when there's zero practical benefit over online versions.

I'd much rather those billions of dollars being spent on many thousands of libraries' physical collections went to paying teachers and professors instead, for instance.

Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by joe5150 on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @06:04PM (#34989587)
You may have the wrong idea about what physical collections cost and how much money would be saved by replacing them with digital collections (the number is negative).
Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by crazygringo on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @06:09PM (#34989638)
Do you have a source for that?

Because if the number were negative in the long-term, it doesn't make sense that libraries would be doing that.

Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by joe5150 on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @06:17PM (#34989729)
Source is I run a library. We pay outrageous prices for eBooks which 1) aren't actually owned, 2) can't be bought used or donated, 3) may expire after a fixed term or number of circulations, and 4) generally have to be managed within vendor-specific eBook lending platforms which in the not-that-long run are going to cost any library more than a set of shelves.

Some useful commentary here: https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/sta...

[Edit] As for whether this makes sense for libraries, we have to meet the demands and expectations of our users whether it makes sense or not. The hope (HOPE) is that given enough time and changes in the market, some of the terms under which we now acquire and pay for digital resources will become more favorable to libraries, but that could be a long way away. What I can tell you is that there are probably about 0 universities (in the US) who are actually prioritizing physical collections development over digital in spite of the costs.

Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by tomjen3 on Thursday March 02, 2023 @01:13AM (#34992596)
Aside: your writing style is confusing and very hard to follow.

Collections are great, but from your example there are thousands of books on something rather obscure that very few libraries are going to have. Further organzing all the books in such a collection is trivial - if you do it online.

Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by specialist on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @05:57PM (#34989511)
treasure hunt vs foraging.
Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by garciansmith on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @08:19PM (#34990716)
The "browsing" type of research is extremely important for academic research as well. I love texts being available online, but I've also found many new sources and leads to chase by physically browsing library stacks.
Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by wrp on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @11:10PM (#34991890)
I do most of my materials hunting online now, and I think I'm pretty good at it, but for discovery/serendipity it is still inferior to going into the stacks. A big problem with digital searching is that even if everything you could want is digitized, the search interface channels you in ways you can't fully appreciate.
Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by wrp on Wednesday March 01, 2023 @11:19PM (#34991952)
Advocates of going all digital argue that a sufficiently capable browsing interface could reproduce the experience of physical browsing. Even if that were true, it doesn't mean the resources would ever be allocated to make it happen. Once physical stacks are out of sight and mind, few will have any idea or care about what has been lost.
Re:Twilight of the Libraries: What Gets Lost When Books Go O... by tomjen3 on Thursday March 02, 2023 @01:07AM (#34992571)
But you do get that. Better actually, because you can approach it on multiple axis (something the real world is physically incapable of): if the author has published multiple books you can click that axis and follow along it, and if not you not Amazon lists similar and related books.

For non-fiction, the books around it will just be either the authors other books, or books that are very close in the dewey-decimal system. Again, trivial to get online.