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Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by scarface_74 on Friday February 24, 2023 @01:07PM (#34927651)
This was your original thesis:

> Microsoft for example could have spent unlimited money on IE and the justice department wouldn’t have cared as long as it was treated as a business investment. However, leveraging the ability to change windows was seen as problematic.

There is no confusion. Nothing came out of the DOJ case with respect to MS bundling IE.

Intel has never had a monopoly when it came to x86. IBM insisted from day one that were two suppliers for x86 before it even agreed to use the first chip.

Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by Retric on Friday February 24, 2023 @01:11PM (#34927705)
I said “leveraging the ability to change windows” which is not limited to bundling.

Making it more difficult to install competitors is “leveraging the ability to change windows.”

They very much lost in large part because of a video shown in court of how difficult to install a competitor. They even lied about it by editing their own video which skipped steps showing they knew that behavior was problematic.

As to Intel’s x86 monopoly. Intel paid 1.6 billion in response to a monopoly lawsuit, and the EU fined them $1.45 billion and ordered it to end its customer rebate program. So they where definitely treated like a monopoly.

Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by scarface_74 on Friday February 24, 2023 @01:50PM (#34928298)
Did you ever install Navigator back in the day? It was not difficult to install another browser.
Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by Retric on Friday February 24, 2023 @02:26PM (#34928831)
Yes. It wasn’t always difficult, but at various points there were extra hoops you needed to jump through. Again I will point out Microsoft editing a video to skip steps they clearly wouldn’t have done so if the process was reasonable.

They have even swapped peoples browsers with security updates before. Though more recent examples like KB 3135173 seem like a simple mistake, it’s more provocative when such things were common.

Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by scarface_74 on Friday February 24, 2023 @02:54PM (#34929219)
There were never any extra hoops. You downloaded Netscape and you clicked on install like you did any other application.
Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by Retric on Friday February 24, 2023 @04:00PM (#34930054)
Not only is this false it was demonstrated as false in court.

“Microsoft later submitted a second inaccurate videotape into evidence. The issue was how easy or difficult it was for America Online users to download and install Netscape Navigator onto a Windows PC. Microsoft's videotape showed the process as being quick and easy, resulting in the Netscape icon appearing on the user's desktop. The government produced its own videotape of the same process, revealing that Microsoft's videotape had conveniently removed a long and complex part of the procedure and that the Netscape icon was not placed on the desktop, requiring a user to search for it. Brad Chase, a Microsoft vice president, verified the government's tape and conceded that Microsoft's own tape was falsified.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

Also I had forgotten about this bit: “Later, Allchin re-ran the demonstration and provided a new videotape, but in so doing Microsoft dropped the claim that Windows is slowed down when IE is removed.”

Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by barneygale on Friday February 24, 2023 @03:02PM (#34929336)
Why are you continuing to argue when you clearly don't understand antitrust?
Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by scarface_74 on Friday February 24, 2023 @03:04PM (#34929367)
Well, in that case neither does the justice department for the last three decades since none of them have agreed with HN lawyers theories...
Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by saurik on Friday February 24, 2023 @03:21PM (#34929563)
You seem to keep ignoring, though, that Microsoft lost :/. Like: Microsoft was charged, the case was heard, and Microsoft lost. The judge even ruled that Microsoft be broke into two companies! So, no: you are just wasting everyone's time here by insisting something that is 100% absolutely incorrect.

https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/management/m...

FWIW, the reason you might be a bit confused--though I do not think this excuses the time you're spending here--is that Microsoft did not end up broken into two because they appealed that part of the ruling and "won"... but that court of appeals actually re-affirmed that Microsoft's actions were illegal!

https://www.computerworld.com/article/2582620/appeals-court-...

> The appeals court, in its decision, specifically rejected Jackson's order that Microsoft be split. "We vacate the judgment on remedies, because the trial judge engaged in impermissible ex parte contacts by holding secret interviews with members of the media and made numerous offensive comments about Microsoft officials in public statements outside of the courtroom, giving rise to an appearance of partiality," the decision said in part.

This is essentially akin to someone being convicted of something and then appealing the decision to an appeals court that decides "OK, the defendant clearly is guilty, but the chain of evidence used by the district attorney was compromised and so none of it is admissible; thereby, you cannot send them to jail, even though we know they are guilty".

(edit: Also, there were, in fact, serious ramifications on Microsoft for this loss... Bill Gates largely had to step down as CEO due to having gotten the courts so mad at Microsoft that it was almost broken apart, the IE team had a difficult time hiring anyone due to the shame and Internet Explorer ended up on life support <- this is often blamed in Microsoft "not caring as they were a monopoly" but that is far from the truth, and the resulting chaos for Microsoft really allowed Apple an entrance with Steve Jobs back at the helm to retake a large market segment. I did a talk about The Fall of the Roman Empire that covered some of these issues, but more detail on IE is likely a nonsequitur.) https://vimeo.com/310654342

Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by scarface_74 on Friday February 24, 2023 @03:34PM (#34929725)
And this still has no bearings on the original thing claimed that Microsoft was found to be anti competitive for bundling IE. Not bundling IE was never part of the consent decree. No one ever said there was going to have to be a separate “IE company Inc”.
Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by Retric on Friday February 24, 2023 @04:04PM (#34930107)
The degree of bundling was part of the decent degree, including IE with windows was not.

Aka the use of private Windows API’s by IE was explicitly banned in the decent decree.

The initial case which MS lost would have resulted in splitting the company, on appeal and by the time of the new trial (which they also lost) the government changed its mind into no longer seeking to break up the company. But that was on the government not a legal victory by Microsoft.

Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by scarface_74 on Friday February 24, 2023 @04:10PM (#34930183)
According to the Wikipedia summary

> However, the DOJ did not require Microsoft to change any of its code nor did it prevent Microsoft from tying other software with Windows in the future

Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by Retric on Friday February 24, 2023 @07:16PM (#34932185)
First they where required to change the OS in a few ways:

“H. Starting at the earlier of the release of Service Pack 1 for Windows XP or 12 months after the submission of this Final Judgment to the Court, Microsoft shall:

1. Allow end users (via a mechanism readily accessible from the desktop or Start menu such as an Add/Remove icon) and OEMs (via standard preinstallation kits) to enable or remove access to each Microsoft Middleware Product or Non-Microsoft Middleware Product by (a) displaying or removing icons, shortcuts, or menu entries on the desktop or Start menu, or anywhere else in a Windows Operating System Product where”

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2001/11/28/01-2949...

the only way to achieve the above is to change windows code.

The API issue wasn’t one of code it was one of documentation:

“The proposed settlement required Microsoft to share its application programming interfaces with third-party companies and appoint a panel of three people who would have full access to Microsoft's systems, records, and source code for five years in order to ensure compliance.[28]” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

It publishing API’s may seem like a strange remedy but it was a common tactic they used to limit competition. Netscape for example couldn’t release Netscape for Windows 95 at release because while the IE tea, had access to API’s they weren’t providing them publicly until release.

Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by scarface74 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:28PM (#34939120)
And you are still moving the goalpost. The entire thesis was that “bundling” was considered anti competitive. Absolutely nothing you cited supports that.
Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by int_19h on Friday February 24, 2023 @06:15PM (#34931590)
Microsoft was also forced to document many of its proprietary protocols (such as SMB) and file formats (such as Office).
Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by dragonwriter on Friday February 24, 2023 @03:07PM (#34929393)
> Nothing came out of the DOJ case with respect to MS bundling IE.

In the sense that there was ultimately a comparative slap on the wrist remedy, in part because of a favorable-to-Microsoft change in administration between the findings of fact on antitrust violation (in which bundling IE was a factor, but far from the sole factor) and the imposition of a remedy for those violations, yes, nothing much came out of it.

Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by scarface_74 on Friday February 24, 2023 @03:36PM (#34929768)
The original poster was originally focused on bundling. If DOJ had said Bill Gates kicked a dog while dressing up as clippy it would have meant nothing since there was no proposed remedy or anything that came out of the consent decree that BG had to stop cosplaying as Clippy and kicking dogs.
Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by Retric on Friday February 24, 2023 @07:19PM (#34932222)
No, I didn’t mention bundling you did.

Also, U.S. vs Microsoft wasn’t limited to Netscape vs IE several other companies were involved. The first Prohibited Conduct was in terms of OEMs:

“ A. Microsoft shall not retaliate against an OEM by altering Microsoft's commercial relations with that OEM, or by withholding newly introduced forms of non-monetary Consideration (including but not limited to new versions of existing forms of non-monetary Consideration) from that OEM, because it is known to Microsoft that the OEM is or is contemplating:” …

“B. Microsoft's provision of Windows Operating System Products to Covered OEMs shall be pursuant to uniform license agreements with uniform terms and conditions. Without limiting the foregoing, Microsoft shall charge each Covered OEM the applicable royalty for Windows Operating System Products as set forth on a schedule, to be established by Microsoft and published on a web site accessible to the Plaintiffs and all Covered OEMs, that provides for uniform royalties for Windows Operating System Products, except that:”

Etc

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2001/11/28/01-2949...

Re:It’s time for Alphabet to spin off YouTube by scarface74 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:31PM (#34939141)
Then what was the point of this?

> Microsoft for example could have spent unlimited money on IE and the justice department wouldn’t have cared as long as it was treated as a business investment. However, leveraging the ability to change windows was seen as problematic.

And how is it related to anything Google is doing?