News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Magic doesn't work that way by ulizzle on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:12AM (#34877775)
Ppl believe in silly stuff like gender ideology today, even tho we have an almost complete understanding of human biology, so let’s not throw stones at history
Re:Magic doesn't work that way by stouset on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:19AM (#34877832)
> we have an almost complete understanding of human biology

Frankly I can’t believe someone would state such a thing with a straight face.

Also, gender is a psychological construct more than a biological one. Are you confusing gender and sex?

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by ulizzle on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:28AM (#34877899)
We do have an almost complete understanding, and I actually think I was being too generous; but at least for the purpose of this convo, we certainly do know about X & Y chromosomes.

I don’t believe that gender is a psychological construct. I believe that gender & sex are synonymous & it’s a politically correct construct to differentiate them in any way.

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by stouset on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:41AM (#34878002)
Sure, why have two words to describe two separate but related concepts when we could just decide to pretend that one of those concepts doesn’t even exist?

Also, I’d encourage you to ask more or less any biologist whether or not they think we’re just about down wrapping up their field of expertise.

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by adrianN on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:51AM (#34878084)
Some people of the same sex feel differently about their bodies and their sexuality. It seems useful to me to have words to describe that difference. I don't really see an "ideology" in that any more than I see "ideology" in other cultural phenomena, e.g. "surfer dudes", "skaters", or "weed aficionados". It's only made into an ideology by people who seek divisional talking points for political discourse.
Re:Magic doesn't work that way by stouset on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @03:02AM (#34878156)
Just imagine how quickly society would fall apart if we had people who don’t even surf calling themselves “surfer dudes” simply because all their friends surf, they dress and talk the part, and they participate enthusiastically in wider surfing culture.
Re:Magic doesn't work that way by flangola7 on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @04:38AM (#34878917)
Then how do you define trans and nonbinary people such as myself?
Re:Magic doesn't work that way by slaw on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @06:12PM (#34889096)
If you produce sperm then you are male.

If you produce ovum you are female.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by stouset on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @06:57PM (#34889551)
Do you make a habit of collecting eggs and/or sperm from the people you meet for the purpose of determining their biological sex? How many of your friends’ and acquaintances’ gametes have you confirmed?

If this person[1] tells you that they are a man, what level of scrutiny should they be subject to in order to confirm this to your satisfaction? If you do not intend to reproduce with them, to what end is it important that you establish which type of gamete they produce?

If a future surgery allows a woman to produce sperm, is this what will qualify them as a man from your perspective?

Where do hermaphrodites fit into this picture? What about people that produce neither sperm nor ova?

[1]: https://trueactivist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/transgen...

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by slaw on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @07:08PM (#34889654)
Yes, if future surgery allows a women to change their chromosome and produce sperm then they will be a man.
Re:Magic doesn't work that way by stouset on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:18PM (#34890713)
Do you consider a tomato to be a vegetable or a fruit?

Biologically, a tomato is a fruit. This is inarguable fact. If you are a biologist breeding new strains, you will conceptualize a tomato as a fruit. And yet culinarily a tomato is a vegetable. Put a tomato in a fruit salad and people are going to look at you funny. Note that a biologist who eats food can and will consider a tomato both a fruit and a vegetable depending on the context.

If you can understand this, you can understand that someone’s biological sex—primarily relevant to reproduction and healthcare—can differ from their psychological sex (i.e., their gender), which is more relevant to social contexts. Both can be true simultaneously, but unless you’re a doctor caring for a trans person or intending to perform reproductive acts with them, someone’s psychological sex is almost certainly more relevant to your relationship with them than which gamete they happen excrete.

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by slaw on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:38PM (#34890887)
Tomato is a fruit, always was.

Sex is way more important in social context. If I am looking for sexual relationship I am interested only in females. For other social contexts I don't really care whether someone is male or female or thinks they are someone else. Gender is irrelevant.

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by stouset on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @12:41AM (#34892067)
> Tomato is a fruit, always was.

Are you genuinely incapable of understanding the concept of context?

> Sex is way more important in social context.

I sincerely hope that the vast majority of your social relationships are not based upon the promise of reproducing with them.

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by lern_too_spel on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @07:02PM (#34889592)
What if you produce neither or both from birth? What if surgery changes which of those, if any, you produce?

What if I told you that none of this really matters to me? What if people discriminating against people who want to be one or the other now makes it matter because discrimination increases crime and reduces productivity?

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by slaw on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @07:08PM (#34889645)
If a surgery changes their chromosome then they change sex too.

What if I tell you I don't care what sex you are or you think you are.

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by lern_too_spel on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @07:16PM (#34889704)
> If a surgery changes their chromosome then they change sex too.

Now you've completely changed your definition in the course of a few minutes, but you still don't want to change your beliefs. Funny how that works. Imagining what your new definition will be, what if you have any of these sex chromosome anomalies, as more than 2 out of every thousand humans do? What if you use gene therapy to change your chromosomes but don't alter your anatomy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome_anomalies

> What if I tell you I don't care what sex you are or you think you are.

Then why are you making a big deal of trying to define it for others and supporting those trying to legislate who can believe what?

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by slaw on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:42PM (#34890923)
If you can change sex without changing chromosomes, I would really like to know how it is possible to produce sperm not being male.

I was only stating definition of male and female. If someone believes for example, they are Apache Helicopter, good for them.

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by lern_too_spel on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @11:39PM (#34891726)
> I would really like to know how it is possible to produce sperm not being male

Here is somebody who wasn't male according to your original definition producing sperm after surgery. https://www.thepinknews.com/2019/12/09/testicle-transplant-s...

> If someone believes for example, they are Apache Helicopter, good for them.

Certainly. That's no skin off my back, just like people believing in magical invisible beings and praying to them. Legislating who gets to identify as what when it's not hurting anybody does make society worse, and the people who believe in magical invisible beings legislating based on the voices they hear in their heads also make society worse off. That is a problem worth fighting against.

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by gonnies on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @06:01AM (#34879537)
It's massively complex once you start digging down into the details, and the bulk of it really is unknown. I used to work in biomedical research and the enormity of just how much we don't know became more apparent the more I learned about the topic.

That said, I agree with you on how nonsensical gender ideology is. I find it particularly irksome because of how unscientific the whole thing is, there is a huge amount of bullshit being passed off as facts.

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by fsckboy on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @03:23AM (#34878311)
>gender is a psychological construct more than a biological one.

are you saying that psychology has something other than a biological basis?

>Are you confusing gender and sex?

American Heritage Dictionary usage note on this point:

Usage Note: Some people maintain that the word sex should be reserved for reference to the biological aspects of being male or female or to sexual activity, and that the word gender should be used only to refer to sociocultural roles. Accordingly, one would say The effectiveness of the treatment appears to depend on the sex of the patient and In society, gender roles are clearly defined. In some situations this distinction avoids ambiguity, as in gender research, which is clear in a way that sex research is not. The distinction can be problematic, however. Linguistically, there isn't any real difference between gender bias and sex bias, and it may seem contrived to insist that sex is incorrect in this instance.

source, and of course the definitions

https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=gender

https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=sex

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by stouset on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @03:39AM (#34878429)
> are you saying that psychology has something other than a biological basis

Yes, yes, psychology is applied neurology is applied biology is applied chemistry is applied physics. And yet we have psychologists and neurologists and biologists and chemists and physicists and they all seem to believe they have different jobs.

Playing pointless semantic games doesn’t buy you any points.

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by fsckboy on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @03:46AM (#34878489)
your statement doesn't make any point other than mine, but do you mean semantic games like saying that gender is different from sex?

the (Big) Five Factor model of personality (standard psychology) measures sex-based population (density) differences, and shows up across cultures.

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by stouset on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @04:13AM (#34878700)
Since you’re a fan of the dictionary, I am certain you will appreciate the following:

Merriam-Webster[1]:

> b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

> c: GENDER IDENTITY

American Heritage Dictionary[2]:

> b. One's identity as female or male or as neither entirely female nor entirely male.

O.E.D.[3]:

> b. The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather than biological ones

[1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender

[2]: https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=gender

[3]: https://www.oed.com/viewdictionaryentry/Entry/77468

Re:Magic doesn't work that way by fsckboy on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @12:11PM (#34883648)
I don't like dictionaries, I like research.

Merriam-Webster 2018 says, sense 1 abc [gramatical gender] but sense 2 is all about sex.

>2a SEX ...

>2b the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

http://web.archive.org/web/20181125203538/https://www.merria...

it doesn't mention gender identity, but gender identity is a perfectly good word for gender identity.

I don't have access to the OED here but I'm sure we'd see a similar timeline.