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Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by msla on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @05:14PM (#34811491)
And yet people don't get how narrow the Brandenburg test is:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/brandenburg_test

> The test determined that the government may prohibit speech advocating the use of force or crime if the speech satisfies both elements of the two-part test:

> The speech is “directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action,”

> AND

> The speech is “likely to incite or produce such action.”

[snip]

> The Supreme Court in Hess v. Indiana (1973) applied the Brandenburg test to a case in which Gregory Hess, an Indiana University protester, said, “We’ll take the fucking street later (or again)." The Supreme Court ruled that Hess’s profanity was protected under the Brandenburg test, as the speech “amounted to nothing more than advocacy of illegal action at some indefinite future time.” The Court held that “since there was no evidence, or rational inference from the import of the language, that his words were intended to produce, and likely to produce, imminent disorder, those words could not be punished by the State on the ground that they had a ‘tendency to lead to violence.’”

> In NAACP v. Claiborne Hardware Co.(1982), Charles Evers threatened violence against those who refused to boycott white businesses. The Supreme Court applied the Brandenburg test and found that the speech was protected: “Strong and effective extemporaneous rhetoric cannot be nicely channeled in purely dulcet phrases. An advocate must be free to stimulate his audience with spontaneous and emotional appeals for unity and action in a common cause. When such appeals do not incite lawless action, they must be regarded as protected speech.”

And because I also see this doctrine over-applied online:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fighting_words

> In Texas v. Johnson (1989), the Supreme Court redefined the scope of the fighting words doctrine to mean words that are "a direct personal insult or an invitation to exchange fisticuffs." There, the Court held that the burning of a United States flag, which was considered symbolic speech, did not constitute fighting words.

> In R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul (1992), the Supreme Court found that the "First Amendment prevents government from punishing speech and expressive conduct because it disapproves of the ideas expressed." Even if the words are considered to be fighting words, the First Amendment will still protect the speech if the speech restriction is based on viewpoint discrimination.

The page I linked to links to multiple law review articles on the subject:

http://openscholarship.wustl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article...

http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?art...

http://via.library.depaul.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=28...

Suffice it to say: If someone online claims a speech act isn't protected due to the fighting words exemption, no it isn't.

Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by Xeoncross on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @05:20PM (#34811582)
Hello, I was just born yesterday and now I'm shocked to discover every single person I've met so far has hold some view I dislike.

Theoretically, how much outrage do I need to manufacture to get the legal system to ignore the Brandenburg test and prosecute today's flavor of thought villain?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OV4VaNW4FU

Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by ARandomerDude on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @05:25PM (#34811655)
Say the word "trans" in a sentence and put an "x" on an otherwise common adjective and no other effort is required.
Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by version_five on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @05:33PM (#34811772)
I expect the above will get flagged but it's correctly pointing out that we've effectively brute forced some loopholes that allow normal protections on speech and thought to be bypassed. The fact that you "can't" say certain things ends up shifting the game to claiming your opponent has said one of those certain things.

Edit: to wit, the parent post claim in ridiculous action: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34811787

Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by PaulDavisThe1st on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @05:53PM (#34812073)
> The fact that you "can't" say certain things

what fact is that? who enforces the "can't" ?

Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by freejazz on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @06:18PM (#34812385)
exactly. the poster you are responding to is pretending that the boundaries of polite conversation have always been the same as the boundaries of legal speech when that's obviously not the case and has never been.
Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by mansion7 on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @11:56PM (#34815218)
According to the Twitter files, Silicon Valley enforces it at the behest of the federal government.
Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by insickness on Thursday February 16, 2023 @04:41AM (#34816770)
Not clear why you're getting downvoted, but this is the exact right answer. The Twitter files was proof that the Federal government put pressure on Twitter to censor specific viewpoints.
Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by nickthegreek on Thursday February 16, 2023 @10:50AM (#34820231)
What was the pressure?
Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by Xeoncross on Thursday February 16, 2023 @01:10PM (#34822822)
There was often no (but sometimes) pressure, Twitter was aligned enough with most of the requests it seemed.

Regardless, does that remove the offense?

Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by nickthegreek on Thursday February 16, 2023 @02:46PM (#34824687)
The offense being requests to remove revenge porn?
Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by PaulDavisThe1st on Thursday February 16, 2023 @10:17AM (#34819764)
Somehow, I don't think that the material covered by the so-called "Twitter files", or the material not covered by them (e.g. Trump asking directly for deletion), is what the GP was referring to.

I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by lannisterstark on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @06:00PM (#34812160)
Yep.

"Kill x people" is fine and protected. "Kill x people at y date at z mall" is not.

Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by flippinburgers on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @06:03PM (#34812199)
Does that pass the "likely to produce" requirement?
Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by lannisterstark on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @06:08PM (#34812274)
Hess v Indiana did that.

Note:

>Hess uttered, "We'll take the fucking street later" or "We'll take the fucking street again." Hess was convicted in Indiana state court of disorderly conduct.

>The Supreme Court reversed Hess's conviction because Hess' statement, at worst, "amounted to nothing more than advocacy of illegal action at some indefinite future time." In contrast to such an indefinite future time, the Court emphasized the word imminent in the "imminent lawless action" test of Brandenburg. Because the evidence did not show that Hess' speech was intended and likely to produce "imminent disorder", the state could not punish Hess' speech.[3][4]

Re:Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectua... by flippinburgers on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @06:19PM (#34812400)
While that shows the supreme court ruled in his favor because of a lack of time specificity, that doesn't mean that the court would necessarily rule against him had he specified a time. Speculatively there might be more involved in the assessment.