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Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by rbanffy on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @11:49AM (#34806626)
Such a shame. It could have made much more of an impact if released with better Linux support back then...
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by five82 on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:36PM (#34807479)
The tech was solid but the implementation left a lot to be desired. I still shudder when I think about the RHEL 6 Itanium DB cluster I "inherited" and had to maintain. A very temperamental serial console that would constantly freeze up. No local storage so we were forced to boot from SAN. I prayed every time we rebooted that it would actually come back up. Plenty of times it didn't.
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by rbanffy on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @03:52PM (#34810392)
But that’s all on the tooling side. It’s not really Itanic’s fault. Had it run a decently reliable OS, it’d be fine. It never lived up to the hype, but caches were humongous for the time and more than once they were able to hold most of my working dataset.
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by chasil on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:13PM (#34807083)
AMD64 was a shark that ended the Itanic, as efficiently as the Itanic ended Alpha and PA RISC (if not moreso).

When the Pentium 4 adopted AMD's instruction set after Microsoft's refusal to support a new Intel 64-bit ISA, the customer base evaporated.

Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by TEP_Kim_Il_Sung on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @01:26PM (#34808315)
Professor Itanium shouldn't have messed with compound X.
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by rbanffy on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @04:01PM (#34810503)
> after Microsoft's refusal to support a new Intel 64-bit ISA

Back then, having Microsoft’s blessing could make or break an ISA. I can’t shake the feeling Itanium was being sold to the wrong crowd.

Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by crest on Thursday February 16, 2023 @08:07AM (#34818154)
Intel managed to kill off two competing architectures with Itanium only to get taken out by AMD in turn. Karma is a bitch.
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by blacklion on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:14PM (#34807113)
Nope. It needed good compiler, not OS kernel. Itanium performance relied on very smart compilers, and they not happened in time.
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by eej71 on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:32PM (#34807416)
I'm not sure it was ever going to happen.
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by kjs3 on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:44PM (#34807607)
Itanic is just the latest in a long line of architectures that include the caveat "well, yeah, that's a problem but the compiler will make up for that". While compilers have measurably improved over the last 30+ years, the magic compiler tech that makes things like Multiflow Trace, Cydrome or Itanium performant enough to make a difference in the market hasn't materialized. It isn't that the compiler didn't 'happen in time', it still hasn't happened.
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by FullyFunctional on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @01:27PM (#34808329)
What really happened was that cache misses kept increasing in latency (CPUs getting faster, memory isn't) and static scheduling simply cannot scale that far. Multiflow and friends would have exactly the same problem in a modern implementation - static scheduling is fundamentally hopeless.

Transmeta did slightly better as CMS (the "JIT") could take advantage of biases discovered at runtime, but still couldn't do as well as a fully dynamic scheduler.

Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by fweimer on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @02:18PM (#34809112)
The shift to Linux happened around the same time, and few people would bother with anything else but GCC. It might have might made a difference if the Gelato Federation had arrived earlier, with more funding, and a mandate to conduct generic toolchain maintenance, in addition to Itanium-specific work. Kind of what Linaro does today. I think Gelato was way too late, and I don't recall it being particularly impactful (but it's been a long time ago, sorry).
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by rbanffy on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @04:06PM (#34810549)
The shift to Linux was a bit too late. By the time it happened, Itanium was lagging behind, with Intel resources relocated to match AMD’s 64-but x86 offensive. Maybe, with enough resources Intel and the FOSS community would be able to get the smart compilers an JIT optimisations that could have made EPIC a competitive architecture.
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by stonogo on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @02:51PM (#34809634)
Sure it did. Some of my former colleagues built a top-five supercomputer using Itanium on Linux: https://www.pnnl.gov/news/release.aspx?id=487

Their complaints about that system really focused on the administration and provisioning issues. It ran code fine.

Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by yokoprime on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:14PM (#34807107)
Maybe, but performance was never great and it solved yesterdays problems
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by msla on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:16PM (#34807135)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itanium

Itanium had Linux support from day one:

> The Trillian Project was an effort by an industry consortium to port the Linux kernel to the Itanium processor. The project started in May 1999 with the goal of releasing the distribution in time for the initial release of Itanium, then scheduled for early 2000.[183] By the end of 1999, the project included Caldera Systems, CERN, Cygnus Solutions, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, Intel, Red Hat, SGI, SuSE, TurboLinux and VA Linux Systems.[184] The project released the resulting code in February 2000.[183] The code then became part of the mainline Linux kernel more than a year before the release of the first Itanium processor.

... for values of "day one" which are prior to the release of the actual hardware.

> The Trillian project was able to do this for two reasons:

> the free and open source GCC compiler had already been enhanced to support the Itanium architecture.

> a free and open source simulator had been developed to simulate an Itanium processor on an existing computer.[185]

Itanium was The Future for a good while. It got plenty of resources, hardware, software, and marketing. By the late 1990s, people knew that full support in FOSS was required, so they made it happen. Itanium died because it was founded on a fundamental idea (making parallelism explicit and relying on software to extract it using static analysis) that simply didn't pan out, and when AMD brought the x86 ISA into the 64-bit world it was done.

Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by rbanffy on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @03:55PM (#34810426)
> when AMD brought the x86 ISA into the 64-bit world it was done.

Perhaps another example of “worse is better”…

Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by msla on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @04:16PM (#34810685)
There are better ISAs than x86, but the Itanium wasn't it.
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by kjs3 on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:53PM (#34807753)
I would argue that the shame isn't what Itanium might-have-been, but the architectural roads-not-taken because Itanium absorbed all the resources and mindshare. Would have been interesting to see where Alpha, HPPA...even MIPS R10K family...would be today had the investment thrown away on Itanium been spent more wisely elsewhere.
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by ajross on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @01:42PM (#34808575)
They'd have been at the same place we are today. CPU architecture is a mature technology and other than horizontal integration and super-wide parallelism, all the basic ideas were already fixed by the early 90's. Those architectures were all just regurgitating each others ideas anyway, there was very little genuine innovation in late RISC.

Well, with the arguable exception of Alpha. The 21264 presaged the modern core most closely, even if it was too big and expensive to be very competitive on desktops. The, er, "21364" reached market a few years later and took over the world as the Pentium Pro.

Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by ghaff on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @03:06PM (#34809816)
I generally agree although I do think there's too much mythology around Alpha.

What if Intel had said to HP "That's a really dumb plan" when it brought up the idea of EPIC? I agree probably not much. Intel would presumably have accelerated what Gelsinger called a 64-bit RAS Xeon in a magazine article. Probably good for Intel and not clearly negative for HP. (Both companies went that route in the end anyway.)

Less money would have been wasted in general but it's not like a company spending $100s of millions on Itanium would have told its engineers and other employees to go fiddle with some other exotic architecture. It probably just wouldn't have hired them in the first place.

Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by ajross on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @03:40PM (#34810257)
Seems almost certain that we would have ended up with something that looks exactly like x86_64 a few years earlier in that case, no? I mean, it's not like AMD invented fundamentally new concepts or anything. The doubled GPR set was likely to happen regardless. The REX mechanism might work differently (like moving to a 3-address encoding). Maybe Intel wouldn't have dropped segmentation and we had a new selector record in long mode to worry about. Maybe we wouldn't have the sign bit rule in addresses. None of those are design-breakers.

Again, if no one (including giants like Apple and NVIDIA) has invented new ways to run code in the last 30 years either, it seems like wishful thinking to argue that Intel would have somehow done it had they been less wrong about VLIW.

Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by ghaff on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @03:50PM (#34810371)
>Seems almost certain that we would have ended up with something that looks exactly like x86_64 a few years earlier in that case, no?

You're probably right. If Intel had said (internally): "Screw it. Let's just extend x86. It's not like we have anything to fear from AMD." You'd probably have had it a bit earlier. (Though it's not like most buyers of x86-based systems were screaming for 64-bit until into the 2000s anyway so it's not clear that there would have been a big push to pull the timeframes in by much.)

And Intel would probably have still pushed too hard on frequency and ILP--because Microsoft if a senior Intel I exec I knew who isn't prone to lying is to be believed.

Also, yeah. Apple Silicon is great but it's not new paradigm great. If anything, the revolution has been in heterogeneous computing (esp. GPUs to date). And a lot of that has been partly enabled by open source.

Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by peterfirefly on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @04:01PM (#34810504)
Pentium Pro come out a few years before the Alpha 21264.
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by kjs3 on Friday February 17, 2023 @10:20AM (#34835625)
That's kind of my point. We didn't need some new, speculative, architectural innovation. We would have been better served investing those Itanium dollars in pushing the mature technology which ran the software we wanted to run better. "Genuine innovation" is often an academic exercise, rather than market changing, though we often don't figure that out until later.

Not sure I'd say the 21364 was PPro since as pointed out it came before 21264. There's clearly some crossbreeding tho. The Alpha bus interface did live on in Athlon, tho.

Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by dekhn on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @12:53PM (#34807769)
I can't see how. It was priced too high to be attractive to the people running Linux at that time, while not being any faster. It was aimed at people running large-scale enterprise DBs, which was not a good use case for linux at the time.
Re:Linux Looks to Retire Itanium/IA64 Support by sliken on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @01:09PM (#34808036)
What was missing? HP donated some 2U itaniums to my university, I installed Redhat, downloaded from Redhat. All the expected packages where there, and it just worked.