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Re:Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritis... by jedberg on Saturday February 11, 2023 @04:09PM (#34756381)
> Is admitting the most capable students unfair?

Are they actually the most capable students, or did they just have a better chance of getting higher scores on the arbitrary metrics chosen? And if so, why did they have a higher chance?

There is a difference between better nurture and lack of opportunity. It's true, we shouldn't be correcting for lack of opportunity at the college admissions level, we should be doing it at the elementary level and younger.

But it's a lot easier to correct it at the college admissions level, which is a good choke point in one's life path, so for now, that is where the focus is.

Re:Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritis... by Telemakhos on Saturday February 11, 2023 @04:22PM (#34756497)
Would different test-based or merit-based metrics radically change the result? After all, isn't the purpose of a holistic approach to college admissions basically to make the criterion not one of any measurement of quality merit, but of belonging to the right demographic mix that the college seeks to attain?

Further, why should colleges try to correct for lack of opportunity? Their job is to educate people, and not everyone is apt for higher education. Admitting a student with poor mathematical abilities into a rigorous engineering program is just setting that student up for failure, not recompensing him for opportunities lost or squandered earlier.

Re:Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritis... by jedberg on Saturday February 11, 2023 @04:26PM (#34756533)
> Further, why should colleges try to correct for lack of opportunity?

Public schools should do it because they are part of the education system that needs correction.

Private schools arguably are still part of the public education system since they all get Federal dollars, and thus the same argument applies.

If they're getting tax dollars, that makes them a public good, and therefore they should be doing things that help all people, not just some people.

Re:Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritis... by yterdy on Saturday February 11, 2023 @08:53PM (#34758702)
Additionally, if we are to expect that much of our political, economic, and technical elite are to pass through these institutions - and, further, that such institutions will trade explicitly on their ability to produce this elite - then there is an inherent public interest in the character of their operations. It's simply a matter of accountability.
Re:Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritis... by danheskett on Saturday February 11, 2023 @05:58PM (#34757304)
You've accidental confused achievement and ability.

A student who goes to a poor school who offers zero AP classes will always achieve lower weighted GPAs than students who go to wealthy schools that offer many AP classes. No amount of individual achievement will overcome that mathematical disadvatnage.

Racism comes into when, because of racism, it just so happens that schools who are well funded and can give that advantage are overwhelmingly white, and schools who are are poorly funded and cannot give that advantage are overwhelmingly non-white.

Suggesting that a student who is "placed above his or her station" into an elite program is setup for failure is a favorite of a few SCOTUS Justices, but in fact is not supported by evidence. Graduation and other metrics of success are not strongly correlated to past attainment, primarily because most programs have already had to deal with achievement inequities, and the most successful programs already have mechanisms to even out unequal prior achievement. Virtually all programs that have elite programs already have a substantial apparatus dedicated to filling achievement gaps between incoming students.

The larger question of "what is the purpose of college" and "is it to educate people" is bigger than this thread, but shouldn't be overlooked. For schools that are publicly funded in whole or part, there should be a larger mission than sending young adults through an educational meat grinder. The public mission of public universities should absolutely have a social justice component.

There is absolutely no doubt that we could design an education system which, at an early age, divides and tracks students towards a successful and high level of attainment. By ruthlessly focusing resources on those children with the best chances of success, and minimizing resources expended on those with lower changes of success, the system could produce many multiples of positive outcomes than we do now, but at the cost of many more left with almost no attainment. Our present distribution of resources, in the US, is haphazardly assembled and produces a balance of outcomes, but is by no means optimized for any particular set of outcomes.

Re:Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritis... by neonsunset on Saturday February 11, 2023 @04:25PM (#34756522)
A student with a full family and access to tutors, with better mental health and social situation will be able to score significantly better.

However, the downside to "solving" this is significantly worse. By giving a headstart to students based on their superficial or socioeconomical characteristics creates perverse incentives in the system and disconnects it from a selection process.

Usually, countries that are not US solve this by providing free tutorships or lectures to aspiring students, scholarships and a fixed quota of free placements in the admission for top performing students (each country may have their own flavour of the policy, but the main thing they !fortunately! did not use to be based on race or gender).

It is usually much better, in my personal opinion, to provide the "help" to those who seek it rather than trying to equalize for outcome. Poor upbringing can and usually does damage and incapacitates individuals to an extent. But any movement among the lines of "not having issues or being better prepared means you have to do more work" explicitly discourages the optimal behaviour, incentivizing victim-hood and demoralizes individuals which did use the opportunities available to them or managed to create ones.

Again, and I cannot stress this enough, communism is bad.

Re:Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritis... by jedberg on Saturday February 11, 2023 @04:29PM (#34756564)
I agree with you. This should not be solved at the college admissions level. Resources should be provided to younger students with potential to equalize there. But it's still better than doing nothing at all.

> Again, and I cannot stress this enough, communism is bad.

Again I agree with you. But I'm not sure how that's relevant. Changing the way we do college admissions isn't communism.

In fact, admitting students purely based on test scores is something that happens in communist countries.

Re:Students suing elite U.S. colleges seek 'wealth favoritis... by graphe on Saturday February 11, 2023 @04:30PM (#34756568)
> Are they actually the most capable students, or did they just have a better chance of getting higher scores on the arbitrary metrics chosen? And if so, why did they have a higher chance?

They are the most capable. You call them abitrary, without stating what makes them arbitrary. Until you prove they're arbitrary, your opinion isn't worth addressing.