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Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by d_sem on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @12:16PM (#34711249)
Having exited my teen years just before the smartphones became ubiquitous in the US, I got the opportunity to watch externally how social media and other similar systems effected the day-to-day of my younger siblings through their teen years. It was not positive. Maybe someone younger can attest to my observations:

- more localized isolation as kids spent a higher % of their attention in internet communities - less cultural cohesion due to hyper diversity in memes resulting in fewer shared experiences. - a shift in perceived life value/success based on internet influencers and incentive to emulate their lifestyles. - always online presence increasing the stakes making embarrassing or uncool mistakes permanent and detrimental to one's image.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by sct202 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @12:39PM (#34711652)
The always online I think is a big issue, because now if you're not invited to things or not popular it's very in your face with livestreams that your friends or schoolmates are all having fun together at that exact moment without you.
Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by pipeline_peak on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @01:10PM (#34712155)
I think it's also that you and all your friends are invited to completely different livestreams. No one feels left out even though they physically are.

Like it or not, you're supposed to fit in with people around you. If you can't do that then there's something either wrong with you or them.

That inherent urge to fit in is being digitally compensated, and I don't think it's healthy to avoid being challenged by all these factors we take for granted, from something as simple as eye contact to behavioral consequences.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @01:18PM (#34712281)
Interesting take. I guess your and my high school experiences were very different.
Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by pipeline_peak on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @01:21PM (#34712335)
I was in hs from 2009 to 13 and it was a lonely, niche road filled with watching youtube rants lol.

This comes from my experience thinking I didn't need to fit in for a very long time.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by SketchySeaBeast on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @01:27PM (#34712443)
I graduated in the time before YouTube. I read books alone and left my small town when I could. Sometimes the solution to a better life is changing the people around you and not settling.
Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by oneoff786 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @12:42PM (#34711689)
> less cultural cohesion due to hyper diversity in memes resulting in fewer shared experiences

People being different is bad?

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by retrac on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @01:24PM (#34712388)
People do need common culture. I have a friend in his mid-20s and he is always "Do you know [YouTube personality]?" or showing me memes that require extensive explanations. And we're actually very similar people in many ways.

Some of this is just me not being hip with the next generation's culture. But he also has not seen almost any of what I would call the American film canon. So we can't even discuss cheesy 80s action films. Eventually we figured out he had seen Stargate. He was surprised I had seen it.

He can't tell what's mainstream and what's highly esoteric. I do think that's a problem. I know no one will have any idea what I'm talking about if I bring up my favourite synthwave artists in conversation.

It occurs to me that the form of media often informed my awareness about that. Was it on TV? Popular book at the library? Or did I find it in the back of some weird 'zine?

It's all the same on YouTube. Though there is the view count. It's often watched alone, so no social feedback. When it comes to movie nights, for example, finding something that's acceptable to most, not just hyper-tailored to yourself and full of in-references, is an important social skill.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by oneoff786 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @09:13PM (#34718879)
Ok but… this is so obviously a generational thing. You know who does know the YouTuber? His peers. He does not watch cheesy 80s films and you don’t watch 40s theater. People absolutely don’t need mainstream media. Mainstream media hits the lowest common denominator and tends to suck.

I think most YouTubers and uncomfortably fake to watch, but I would still prefer people watch that over mainstream tv…

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by retrac on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @11:43PM (#34719839)
I'm only some ten years older. The films I spoke of were released before I was born. Yet most of my generation is familiar with some of them. Star Wars, then. Or Schindler's List. Maybe I'm Spielberg biased. The Exorcist.

My point is that there was such a thing -- a common film canon -- that people who were interested in film, could be expected to be somewhat familiar with. No longer true?

Yes. Lowest common denominator. Some common point of reference gives a common vocabulary. Even if it sucks.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by oneoff786 on Thursday February 09, 2023 @10:04AM (#34724993)
Ten years is a lot of years. You specifically called out a single decade of films. If someone is twenty, a film in 1980 is more than double their whole lifetime away. Wanting to chat with the youth about things before their time as the SHARED culture is dumb. If you’re 35, you were born in the 80s.

Believe it or not, not a whole lot of people will watch Raiders of the Lost Ark for the first time and think it was an amazing movie anymore. That’s not to say it isn’t well made. It is. But is also just not very interesting to modern youth.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by paperwasp42 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @01:30PM (#34712487)
OP hit on a really interesting point, and if he's referring to the same thing I've seen, the issue isn't "difference." I think the issue is the degree of difference.

The place I volunteer at has quite a few teen volunteers, and I've noticed I can immediately spot the chronically-online teens (and there's a lot of them), because it's like they're from a different planet. They use language I don't understand, their humor revolves around memes I don't understand, they constantly reference people/events from their favored internet niche, and then completely lose interest in talking with people who don't understand their niche.

I think this ends up decreasing the amount of difference and diversity teens are exposed to, because when there are a million [insert niche here] fans online who "totally get you", there is far less incentive to make friends in the real world. And if you do make real-world friends, they likely are going to be part of that same niche, and have the exact same language/interests/etc that has been crafted by the online community. (It's honestly a bit eerie how good these niches are at creating cookie-cutter teens. I've had bizarrely similar conversations with kids who have never met each other, but are into the same niche. And it's not just their interests that are similar, it's their attitudes/outlooks/political views/etc.)

I find this really concerning, because it's important for teens to be exposed to a wide variety of people/experiences and be encouraged to respect them all. And that's hard to do when you're in a bubble of people who are identical to you, and have very little incentive to branch outside of that bubble.

I think back to my teen friend group, and it was a hodge-podge of computer geeks, theatre kids, journalism nerds, etc. I got so much benefit from having such a diverse friend group, and it's concerning to see those types of friend groups becoming rarer.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by d_sem on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @09:59PM (#34719225)
I appreciate this comment and generally agree. I have observed that teens themselves seem not to understand each other to a greater degree: perhaps the effect is not limited teenagers. Increased inability to relate in ways that allow ideas to be shared, and importantly -- challenged in real settings.
Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by hosh on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @12:53PM (#34711881)
It's not. But people also need some kind of shared meaning and a sense of belonging as well.
Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by oneoff786 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @01:10PM (#34712145)
And how did memes make that harder
Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by hosh on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @01:52PM (#34712836)
Memes don't necessarily make it harder. However, memes can be used to simultaneously include and exclude -- as references to something the "tribe" gets, but others outside the tribe do not. Inside jokes are an example of such references.

When you make hyperspecialized memes, and you have many of them, you're basically fragmenting a larger pool of shared meaning into many smaller ones.

Diversity, and of itself, is not inherently a virtue -- although lots of people would like it to be. Rather, diversity in the ecological sense, leads to more resiliency. There's still have to be some kind of unifying aspect (such as, unifying on humanity as a whole, or better yet, the whole earth as a whole) within which there is diversity. There's a sense of belonging to something greater than you while simultaneously participating and relating from the uniqueness of an individual.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by slowmovintarget on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @12:54PM (#34711908)
Teenagers having the idea reinforced through social media that being different is bad, is bad. Left to their own devices, that is the default social order that children create.
Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by oneoff786 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @01:09PM (#34712137)
But come on. Diversity is not actually bad. People being diverse even if they think it’s bad is not bad. And memes are not a meaningful driver of diversity.
Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by mech987 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:04PM (#34714080)
I don't think any of the people you are having a discussion with are making the claims you think they are making.
Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by oneoff786 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @09:16PM (#34718907)
I’m responding to

> less cultural cohesion due to hyper diversity in memes resulting in fewer shared experiences

My take is it’s a bunch of people who are out of touch with the youth assuming that the youth feel out of touch with each other.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by slowmovintarget on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:05PM (#34714095)
Intent does not an outcome make.

"Social media" accelerates unmoderated interaction with other irresponsible people, which, generally speaking, is not healthy for teenagers.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by oneoff786 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @09:17PM (#34718917)
> unmoderated interaction with other irresponsible people

Other irresponsible people means their peers right? Like teens talking to teens without adult supervision?

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by caeril on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:36PM (#34714627)
What?

Merely existing on the playground, on the field, or in the cafeteria in the 80s and 90s reinforced the idea that being different was bad.

How is this unique to post-2012? At least Instagram doesn't hold you up against a chain-link fence while TikTok punches you in the gut for being different.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by wutbrodo on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @12:40PM (#34711655)
An additional one I noticed with my female cousins was that a lot of fun was sucked out of high school girls' social expression/reconnaissance.

On the recon side, gossiping is a fun bonding activity, but scrolling through snaps/reels is relative drudgery.

On the performance side, "be pretty and vivacious at fun social events" is no longer sufficient without obsessively managing your profile's brand. This doesn't only include posing for, curating, and editing photos, but a bunch of arcane rules about tagging etiquette, who's included in your photos, etc.

This is all from the horse's mouth, with a little bit of editorializing. The social environment of an in-crowd high school girl has always been extremely intense, but these tools hage made the process simultaneously more work and less fun, to hear my cousins tell it.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by shaunxcode on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @01:00PM (#34711999)
We have distributed the spectacle. Now each of us is responsible for projecting our chosen subliminal intent.
Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by danenania on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:29PM (#34714510)
On that note, I wonder how much of these results are due to social media specifically and how much is caused by addiction to screens more generally, and the resulting insomnia, lack of exercise/time outside, and lack of human connection.

I know that in some respects, social media is uniquely bad, but perhaps the bulk of the problem is just being hooked on anything that makes you look at a phone or a screen all the time and neglect other aspects of life. Social media just happens to be the most popular thing currently to be hooked on.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by prawn on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @06:58PM (#34717594)
I think you're on the right track. Personal screens consume so much time. Many of us defend it as just killing time, or researching, or keeping abreast of things but it eats up more than that until the average person feels harried and barely able to keep up. I know that's true for me.
Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by tarkin2 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:26PM (#34714464)
Shared experiences. These help you learn to socialise: you can talk about what you watched and heard last night on television with a wide and local social group. You feel closer to your community through having shared things to discuss and learn the skills to operate within a social group. Without this you feel isolated which leads to depression.

It seems to me, with modern technology, things are shared amongst people to create shared experiences and discussions but these are not people within your local physical community--leading, again, to isolation and the dangers therein.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by MuffinFlavored on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:57PM (#34715008)
> It was not positive.

Can you elaborate? I only ever see children like 9-14 happy doing the latest Instagram or TikTok dance craze in the park/at the mall/with groups of their friends.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by function_seven on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @04:21PM (#34715370)
What you don't see are the kids that weren't invited to the park or mall. The ones those kids are possibly making fun of. Or those same kids you did see, but later at night as they stress about what to wear tomorrow, why Jake didn't like their post earlier today even though he liked Jasmine's post and Mia's post.

Many characters in "Nosedive" (Black Mirror episode) looked really happy as well.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by MuffinFlavored on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:12PM (#34716159)
How does one measure whether it's a net positive (for those who are laughing/dancing with their friends at the park) or a net negative (for those like you described) without being biased/projecting?

It feels a little "anarchist" to say "down with all social media! it's most likely a total net negative! nobody should be allowed to enjoy it because it isn't inclusive of those who might be left out!"

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by function_seven on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:45PM (#34716660)
I can't answer your question, but do note that there are many who are studying this and coming to some similar conclusions. (But of course it's really hard to separate the moral panic from the real trends!)

I agree that we shouldn't just ban anything that exclude some users. I'm not as shrill as some people are about the dangers, but I do have a generally negative opinion of childhoods that are spent so online.

I have several young relatives—ages 9-22—that are heavily online. For the most part, they're the popular kids in their schools. Yet I see and hear constantly how they would never dare do things because of the pile-on potentials. Things I (a nerd who desperately wanted to be cool) would still have done.

When I was in elementary and middle school, I was definitely in the lower quartile of popularity. I was bullied occasionally, and I would sometimes dread going to school because of my social standing. BUT, I had friends at home! I had a life outside of school that I could return to after a short day of that stress. Even in school, the social pressures abated during class. If Instagram or Snapchat or TikTok existed during my school years, I would have found no refuge from the hierarchies and drama of school. The game I was "losing" between first bell and final bell would have gone 24/7.

My only saving grace would have been parents that refused to let me play the game in the first place. I think parents and schools should lean harder in this direction. Kids need to learn their social skills in small settings first, before they're exposed to literally the whole world. An awkward 11-year-old can only do so much "damage" to themselves in the limited setting of IRL. Let's get the mistakes out of the way before they're broadcast across space and time.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by Andrex on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @06:18PM (#34717097)
> It feels a little "anarchist" to say "down with all social media! it's most likely a total net negative! nobody should be allowed to enjoy it because it isn't inclusive of those who might be left out!"

The middle ground I've settled on is regulating it like alcohol.

Children should not be hanging out in bars and they should not be on social networking sites, period. COPPA should be vastly expanded.

Social media is our generation's nicotine. "Wait, it's HOW dangerous??" followed by the next generation's "How could those idiots not realize?"

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by kenjackson on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @07:33PM (#34717950)
I think with social media, the problem can't be put back in the box. With mass communication mechanisms, kids will still replicate many behaviors over group chats, discord, Teams, etc... And realistically how are you going to keep apps out of the hands of kids, when we can't even do it with nicotine and alcohol?
Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by MuffinFlavored on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @11:45PM (#34719857)
> Children should not be hanging out in bars and they should not be on social networking sites, period.

Have you ever watched a child watch YouTube before? I don't know if comments are turned off for kids videos (maybe they are) but most kids videos have 2m+ views if not much more.

Re:The Teen Mental Illness Epidemic Began Around 2012 by Andrex on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @01:17AM (#34786076)
Certain children would probably love cigarettes too, absent proper regulation.