But DeSantis whole schtick is try and make you feel like stuff like DEI is oppression for white people. Voting for a Governor based on something like their opinion on DEI is wild to me. My main focus for Governor is their ability to lead the government and improve my quality of life.
It’s not just “white people.” DeSantis outright won Hispanic voters as well. According to the Associated Press/NORC studies, Youngkin also won Hispanics in Virginia and tied among Asians in 2021.
A critical function of state government is educating children, and that unavoidably invokes making choices about how kids are socialized and taught to view the world. (Nobody is banning books—they are curating what resources the government makes available in taxpayer-funded schools and libraries.) On that front, many minorities don’t want their kids socialized into the notion that they’re oppressed by white people and other left-wing ideas. Similarly, even if they’re sympathetic to sexual minorities, they are distrustful of materials that depict and seemingly encourage sexual exploration by teenagers. (My Muslim parents would have been freaked out by any of the books we are talking about even if everyone therein had been cis and hetero.)
A lot of this kerfuffle is the left foot-gunning itself. They’ve created a structure where any line drawing by the center left opens them up to devastating attacks of isms and phobias from the far left. If the left can’t open the door to teaching about the Tulsa massacre without allowing the Angels Davis sympathizers to walk through behind it that’s the left’s problem.
Everyone bans books. I am surprised this is such a meme because you probably won't find many supposed free speech activists also being in favor of putting Mein Kampf in the student library for the children or teachers teaching Creationist perspectives on science. I think there needs to be a question of merit about what is taught, no?
Let's start with - today, one of these has the words "felony" attached to it. The other does not.
What you’re suggesting is that unelected librarians have some sort of independent authority over deciding what books children should be exposed to that isn’t subject to review by elected officials. There’s an extremely short list of such roles in government—pretty much just government prosecutors and similar positions. Librarians, teachers, etc., are just employees hired to do what the elected government wants them to do.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. Desantis is banning books for political reasons that have nothing to do with the education of children.
> I think there needs to be a question of merit about what is taught, no?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Experts on children's education are not calling for these politics-based book bannings.
I'm not arguing that Desantis is a bad politician. He understands how to create a boogeyman and then get people outraged over it better than any politician alive.
Well yeah, that's the whole point of their information machine.
>I look out at the political landscape and see that all the left is supporting this racist garbage, and I see the right is more concerned with oil pipelines and lowering taxes.
Who is now? The right only has the culture war to talk about. Tucker is on nightly raging about identity politics and whatever they want you to be upset about. I have two Democrat Senators and a Democrat rep I get emails from and they basically only talk about job creation, protecting the environment, and creating a fair tax system.
Your understanding of 'left' politics is just what right-wing media has told you it is.
Dude you're arguing with said he saw it happening at work and it concerned him. You pretended like that didn't happen. Why won't you acknowledge your fellow man's agency?
Where is this happening?
Education experts are delegated the authority to figure out the particulars of how to educate children. The decision of what kids learn is a political decision outside their domain.
Sorry, no. That's just "when I do it, it's good; but when they do it, it's evil." All these book decisions are for "political reasons," and they all have everything to do with the education of children.
Should be easy to show us some major examples on the left then. I can't think of a single governor moving the way Abbott and DeSantis are.
It is. How many books that are anathema to the left do you think you'd find in a school library (e.g. something skeptical about transgenderism)? If you look at library weeding criteria, you'll typically find language about removing books that are now politically incorrect (though they wouldn't use that term).
It's also a mistake to insist on exact symmetry. My understanding is the left is quite over-represented in the librarian profession as a whole, and "book ban" is misleadingly defined as overriding the choices of those public employees:
> It is important to recognize that books available in schools, whether in a school or classroom library, or as part of a curriculum, were selected by librarians and educators as part of the educational offerings to students. Book bans occur when those choices are overridden by school boards, administrators, teachers, or even politicians, on the basis of a particular book’s content (https://pen.org/report/banned-usa-growing-movement-to-censor...).
If a different situation were true (e.g. conservative Christians were quite over-represented in the librarian profession), I'm absolutely certain you'd see political responses from liberal government authorities.
> It is.
I notice you didn't actually supply a major example. Instead what you did was come up with a hypothetical that matched your rhetoric. Obviously that's easy for you, but you still didn't actually supply a major example. Usually an example would come from the real world and include a citation. Can you take another stab at it?
This is demonstrably not true by the fact that this is happening more against topics conservatives find distasteful or offensive (such as LGBT works), as per your own article. Look at that map and the subjects being banned.
So? Is it unreasonable? Do you really think you'd see a rousing fight from the left to defend books that discouraged or condemned gender transitions? Or would you see outrage and calls that "something must be done!" to protect kids from those ideas? Even the ACLU is backing off from defending people and ideas that offend their liberal supporters.
And the rest isn't conjecture.
You're missing my point completely, and misunderstanding how I was using the article I linked.
To put it really bluntly: a Democrat governor and a Republican governor are not going to respond identically to an abortion ban. Likewise, a Democrat governor isn't going to take any action to "ban books" if lower level government actors are already making book decisions according to his wishes. It would be unnecessary. Slot in a Republican governor into the same scenario, and he has to override those lower level government actors who are working in harmony with Democrat priorities.
It's foolish to look for or require total symmetry to see similarities. There are "book bans" coming from both ideological factions, they're just implemented differently.
It behooves you to show evidence that this is happening. So far you’re generalizing a fair bit while not citing, well, anything.
* Gov. Newsom banned remedial classes being taught at community colleges.
* Conversion Therapy has been banned and attempted to be banned by many states in particular in public schools.
* Bibles being banned by school districts.
This isn't a defense of Ron Desantis or any of those things. I'm not convinced Ron Desantis is the only governor that would ban books. If it's politically expedient to ban content, that's what happens in a democracy. I am not in favor of book bans but I very much doubt the defense of principles. The same people complaining about book bans would absolutely ban books if objectionable political content were being pushed on children from the other direction. Or alternatively what is the principled defense of things like the Dept. of Ed. promoting the discredited 1619 Project?
Conversion therapy is abuse.
> Gov. Newsom banned remedial classes being taught at community colleges.
You need to be more specific. Do you have a source?
This is exactly what a lot of supporters of Desantis would probably say about gender affirmation care for people with gender dysphoria. My point here is it just seems unlikely Desantis is the only governor that would ban books in schools. Conversion therapy is illegal in multiple states so putting those books in a student library would break the law so one might call that a ban. I would be shocked if you could convince me there is a governor who would always decline to sign bills that ban material from schools.
And? It's an ongoing debate that even I am unsure about and perhaps maybe they'll be vindicated one day. But conversion therapy is categorically abuse today. And for good reason.
>I would be shocked if you could convince me there is a governor who would always decline to sign bills that ban material from schools.
That's not really how it works. You need to provide evidence of Democrat governors banning books at the state level a la DeSantis and Abbott. I can't prove what they wouldn't do because the situation is theoretical.
This is all you wrote:
* Gov. Newsom banned remedial classes being taught at community colleges.
- not banned books and I explained the issues with your claim in another comment.
* Conversion Therapy has been banned and attempted to be banned by many states in particular in public schools.
- not about banned books
* Bibles being banned by school districts.
- I found one example of a technical battle in one school district in Texas which seems to be more about the larger message/battle over the written law in Texas. Besides this weird case I see no others. Do you have any sources or examples?
Aside from that one weird case I've found (which isn't a democrat or a governor banning books mind you it's a local matter over technicalities), I've seen no citations or specific claims of any kind.
There's a lot of states that have banned it besides that one. Do I care? no, not particularly. This is the Florida "book ban" law which is actually an "instructional material" ban. https://myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Documents/loaddoc.aspx?F... Not a general book ban which would likely be unconstitutional.
The original objection raised here was that the governor is taking powers he doesn't have was it not? Specifics of one state's constitution aside, if a governor of one state can decide what is taught, why can't a governor of another?
As I said, banning material or requiring material is something both parties do or would do.
I also remembered there is a california school district that banned "To Kill a Mockingbird" recently for racism.
No one ever said that. This is not a discussion of gubernatorial powers. Just what is right/wrong.
Re: to kill a mocking bird you are mistaken. That was parents complaining and forcing the school to remove it from the curriculum. It is still available for students to check out. Not the governor, not removed from the school. Do I think it’s stupid and shortsighted? Absolutely. But it is not what we are talking about.
Where are these bible bans you were talking about?
Seems you also abandoned your claims about Newsom banning remedial classes given real context.
Frankly it feels like you’re just throwing a bunch of claims at the wall until something sticks, despite still having not proven basically anything you claimed is happening. A lot of “I heard that…” type stuff. The closest you’ve come are out of context, not as you described, or straight up irrelevant.
Either way this has gone on long enough. I’m done. Have a good one.
https://edsource.org/updates/newsom-signs-bill-to-ban-most-r....
For starters, remedial courses don't transfer to 4 year universities. Which seemed to be a serious impediment for students. Here are some other interesting tidbits:
>AB 1705 builds off a 2017 law, Assembly Bill 705, that said colleges can’t place students in remedial classes unless they are deemed highly unlikely to succeed in transfer-level coursework. That bill was brought forward amid research showing that students who took remedial math and English classes often got stuck in those classes and were less likely to finish their degrees.
>The latest bill goes further by limiting colleges to enrolling only certain populations of students in remedial classes, such as English learners and students in some career and technical education programs. It also leaves room for colleges to enroll other students in remedial classes if the colleges can prove, based on a student’s high school grades, that the student is more likely to earn a degree or certificate by starting in the pre-transfer classes.
Sounds like we should be applauding an attempted overhaul of community colleges in california to me.
As for Creationism? It absolutely should be taught in science class to help students distinguish between what is science and what is pseudoscience. You may as well make sure they understand what a scientific theory is while you're at it.
I'd throw in the Satanic Bible too as it actually defines what humanism is. That's useful info for anybody living in a modern democratic society not founded on a religion.
Throw in some Camus and Nietzche and these kids will have the knowledge they need to take on this world head first!
But, those kind of people don't make for docile laborers who are content to work to fulfill the dreams of others. So we make sure they don't have access to these kinds of books.
Sorry, it does not. Many states focus on improving conditions for their poorest citizens, for historically marginalized citizens, and work to improve access to systems that make people's lives better.
>What my kids are taught in school is not a non issue for me, it's pretty much the issue.
Sure, and Florida is moving away from teaching useful things.
> I will always vote for things that put my kids first even if that regretfully negativity affects others
These policies don't put your children first, they put you first. They exist to make you feel better about the thing the right-wing media has convinced you to be outraged about.
"Sure, and Florida is moving away from teaching useful things."
This is news to me as I review my kids homework with them every night and it seems to be full of useful things like math, science, reading comprehension, geography, etc. Its almost as if you are being fed a false narrative from wherever you get your information from and then you believe it...
Florida is just moving away from teaching sexuality to young kids.
As far as blaming everything on right wing media, I have voted Dem my entire life prior to this, every single vote I've ever cast. I'm mid 40s. I voted Dem on the federal level while voting Rep at the state level this last election. I don't think I've ever watched a complete segment of right wing media on TV or online in my life. I arrived at my opinion by observing how California has endorsed schools lying to parents regarding their kids sexuality and am against that.
What if instead of assuming that everyone that votes differently than you do is a poor misguided easily influenced idiot and instead you actually try to understand that they just have different priorities than you do. Everyone is trying to just do right by their family and you will get much further and be happier if you focus on the 90% of things that most of us have in common rather than attacking and insulting over the 10% that we disagree on. This attacking and denigrating of different political parties is weakening the country.
Or you can continue to be smug and condescending. Whatever makes you feel good about yourself and superior to others. Your call. Based on your post history in this thread, I think we both know what you will choose.
Since the government have every right, and in fact in some cases a moral duty to ban certain materials from schools, the only question here is what materials exactly should children be encouraged to read, and, on the other hand, what will damage their lives and minds.
Individual parents, of course, are free to disagree, and they can show their children whatever they want. However, the whole point of democracy is that the elected officials have mandate on behalf of the majority of the voters to exercise control over state institutions. If voters do not like what DeSantis is doing, they can vote in his opponent during next election.
When it's entirely politically motivated, there is.
>No sane person would object from banning literal hardcore pornography from school libraries. I
Conflating Desantis culture war nonsense with actual pornography is a bad faith argument.
>ndividual parents, of course, are free to disagree, and they can show their children whatever they want. However, the whole point of democracy is that the elected officials have mandate on behalf of the majority of the voters to exercise control over state institutions. If voters do not like what DeSantis is doing, they can vote in his opponent during next election.
If Florida was still a democracy, I might agree with you. Desantis voter disenfranchisement and voter suppression programs have effectively ended that.
Banning books glorifying Nazism is also very much politically motivated. Do you think it would be wrong?
Anyway, doing politically motivated things is the whole point of democracy. The entire idea of it is that we elect the government to do things on our behalf. It is absurd to suggest that government shouldn’t take “politically motivated” actions: that’s what we elect them to do.
> If Florida was still a democracy, I might agree with you. Desantis voter disenfranchisement and voter suppression programs have effectively ended that.
Please stop with the election denialism. Yeah, DeSantis totally stole the election, man.
Come on man you sound like Trump.
The state's job is to set up and maintain a structure by which localities etc. can more-or-less self govern their methodology of education and handle things like content, and e.g. fire your hypothetical school person who's glorifying Nazism. And the actual state should only be getting involved in deeply extreme cases, if at all.
You are, of course, very much aware of this: indeed, this is seen clearly where you write “more or less”. You clearly agree that the state and federal governments have every right to interfere, and set up limits on what decisions the local government can make about its schools.
Moreover, you agree that the state should only be getting involved in “deeply extreme cases”. Well, guess what: there is no objective way to specify what is “deeply extreme”. In fact, DeSantis and his supporters will tell you that the books being curated away are, in fact, “deeply extreme”. You are of course free to disagree, but that’s the point: your objection is not at all about the right of the state government to do the thing it is doing (you believe that the government should totally be able to do exactly what DeSantis has done), only about the contents of the decision, which is to say, whose ox is being gored. Why don’t we discuss that, instead of engaging in silly discussions about the extent and limits of governance, which in today’s America have been, for better or worse, definitively settled with practically zero chances of being changed any time soon?
People can make their own choice if they think this is good content for nine year olds.
That is required by federal law. Same reason you have to attest to being over 18 on porn sites.
That framing is extremely misleading and tendentious. For instance: school boards making decisions about what to stock in their libraries is not "banning books," it's democracy. However, misrepresenting that as "book bans" cranks up the outrage, which is beneficial in partisan an ideological conflict.
It's also frequently hypocritical. For instance: the ACLU has been paying for big banner ads in the New York Times saying the oppose "book bans," while simultaneously employing a director who publicity advocates stopping the circulation of certain books and certain ideas.
When someone complains about "book bans," frequently their real position is "I want this book/idea in the library but that book/idea that I hate needs to be thrown out and burned."
That doesn't affect my overall point, though. I'm not "banning a book" if I refuse to purchase it or dispose if it after I've purchased it, likewise it's not a ban if some level of government does the same thing. If someone wants to read that book, they can buy it or borrow it from someone who chooses to lend it out. The "book ban" language is just tendentious outrage framing.
I mean, I would be surprised if literal pornography is available to be checked out from any school library in the US, even though it's frequently consumed by high-school aged kids, and no one can reasonable claim that's "banned."
Desantis is banning books. Yes, these culture wars are bad. Stupid. But it feels like there is drift into both-sidesism.
That side of the right is most certainly not for free speech any more than Elon Musk is when taking over Twitter.
We make those decisions sometimes hundreds of times a day when dealing face to face with people. We self-censor every day with our family and various social groups to avoid social and professional consequences. I don’t understand why that is so hard to translate when we go online.
Yep. There’s likely going to be a huge blowback to all of this and the supporters will write it off as the country being full of racists. At this point I no longer care. This is draconian stuff.