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Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by gus_massa on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @08:35AM (#34692516)
It's strange that the count increase too much near the wall.

If you have a 1/r^2 decreasement from a point source, the if you have an infinite wall it becomes a constant value that does not decrease with the distance.

Clearly the wall is not infinite, but when the distance from the wall is much smaller (1/5?) than the distance to the border of the wall, the approximation is good enough. The wall is like 8 tiles tall , so I expect the radioactivity at 1/2 tile (15cm, 5in) to be almost equal to the radioactivity when the counter is touching the wall.

Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by perihelions on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @08:39AM (#34692552)
Yes, I noticed that too. I think it's mostly beta radiation close to the wall. It would be attenuated by air absorption further away.
Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by gnramires on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @08:48AM (#34692643)
Good question. Another intuitive way to view (no pun intended) 1/r^2 law is that the solid angle visible from an isotropic emitter (like supposedly this wall) gives the exact decay coefficient. So near the surface the solid angle is like 1/2 sphere (1/2 4pi), and doesn't change much with distance. Only when you get a bit further away it starts to decrease.

Eventually at large distances, any finite object will have the apparent radius decay as 1/r and solid angle as 1/r^2.

I think in this case it could be atmospheric absorption or just getting near a peak point of emission.

Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by penteract on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @12:01PM (#34695379)
Does that apply if the emitter is neither coherent nor opaque? If we were interested in gamma radiation, is the sum from each part of an infinite wall infinite (if we pretend the wall and the air are perfectly transparent to gamma rays)?
Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by gnramires on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @12:26PM (#34711425)
Note that in this case radiation is definitely incoherent. This rule applies to incoherent isotropic emission.

The coherent case is similar I believe, but because for an antenna (emitter) the field is usually tangent to the surface, you get some additional trigonometric factors (not purely solid angle). But by my calculations it's still 1/r^2.

Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by penteract on Thursday February 09, 2023 @02:25AM (#34720765)
Am I doing a calculation wrong then? For e.g. gravity towards an infinite plane, then the force is finite because components in opposite directions cancel out, but for radiation, then if you're 1m away from the wall, you could consider an infinite set of disjoint squares on the wall, each 2^n meters by 2^n meters and with the furthest point 2^(n+1) meters away from you. Since 2^2n / ((2^(n+1))^2) is 1/4 and an underestimate for the radiation you would receive from each section of wall, then the total radiation should be infinite.
Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by gnramires on Friday February 10, 2023 @12:00PM (#34742335)
Oh you might be right! I think what I wrote is incorrect in this case.

For gravity, it's clear the orientation of a small surface doesn't influence its gravitational force. In fact the source can be replaced by a point of equivalent mass.

For radiation, it seems the angle of a surface matters? For example, lambertian surfaces (everyday diffuse surfaces) do depend on their angle for total incoming radiation? Does only reflection exhibit lambertian behavior? There's something funny at work here.

In the lambertian case, there's a cosine term making your terms go to zero and sum converge.

When observing a small oblique (lambertian) surface, you get less radiation by a factor of cos(angle). I believe this is true for black body radiators as well (think a small glowing plate emitting red light). I'm not completely sure it would be true for x-ray and high energy radiation, and intuitively I suspect it indeed isn't. It seems like for high energy emissions, or generally isolated emissions (discounting opaqueness), only the total power is relevant like in gravity. I think self-absorption might be the culprit here.

If we say self-absorption (material absorption) in the high energy case is roughly negligible, then it becomes more strongly non-lambertian and the received power is simply a 1/r^2 integral (which would also explain why radiation gets stronger as it approaches the surface).

---

Here's a simple proof of the solid angle formula I've found I believe is correct for lambertian surfaces: chop your object into infinitesimal pieces (limit goes to 0). For each piece, it tends to behave like a point, so we expect the radiation scaling with distance to be 1/r^2. But solid angle also scales as 1/r^2 for small enough pieces. (it's probably missing many technicalities to make the proof work, but I think it works). Note that for oblique surfaces their solid angle is a function of cos(angle), which follows Lambert's cosine law exactly as well.

Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by hanslub42 on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @08:51AM (#34692692)
Uranium (both U238 and U235) is an alpha-emitter. Alpha particles travel at most a few centimeters in air.
Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by addandsubtract on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @11:14AM (#34694627)
This is U8, though.
Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by snovv_crash on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @12:29PM (#34695802)
(that's the name of the subway line for any non-Berliners who might be confused)
Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by gus_massa on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @01:24PM (#34696789)
That's a good explanation!

I made a mistake and assumed it was Beta or Gamma radiation that travel easier in air.

Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by tomxor on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:22AM (#34693102)
> If you have a 1/r^2 decreasement from a point source, the if you have an infinite wall it becomes a constant value that does not decrease with the distance.

It will still decrease with distance. If you represent the wall as a collection of point sources distributed over a plane, as the distance to the plane diminishes, the distance to individual points do not diminish from and to the same distance as each other, and do not diminish at the same rate as each other. The distances to all sources still diminish but not in the same way, so the appropriate function describing the sum of the contributions from each point is no longer 1/d^2. Also notice that although far away points hardly change in distance at all, their contribution is also very small, i.e the rate of change and intensity are inversely correlated, which is why it's not constant as you were suggesting.

There will be some continuous equation to describe this... someone more familiar with radiance feel free to chime in!

I'm not sure in practice how much of a difference this makes compared to air absorption though.

Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by thehappypm on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:51AM (#34693496)
They’re referencing a classic Electricity & Magnetism proof. Given an infinite sheet of uniform charge density, the electric field is constant at all distances from the sheet, which is deeply unintuitive.
Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by tomxor on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @09:55AM (#34693570)
That is unintuitive, but then is my mistake only in representing the wall as an infinite plane? Or is this merely technically true but missing the point of the function shape being almost constant up to some threshold (depending on the limits of the finite plane).

I feel like I want to plot this now to build an intuition.

Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by AdamN on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @11:05AM (#34694502)
The problem is that this wall does not exist in a vacuum - the OPs comment is otherwise valid. The air is absorbing the radiation (very effectively).
Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by tomxor on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @11:14AM (#34694628)
Yes, I understand that. I'm wondering separately (in a vacuum if you will), what the falloff looks like with a finite plane, and how that relates to the infinite version. Obviously we cannot actually represent the wall as an infinite plane, from my current location it's accurate enough to represent it as a point source... so there is some threshold for a particular finite plane after which the "constant" nature is clearly not true.
Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by penteract on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @11:40AM (#34695001)
If you're looking down at an infinite plane, then the plane occupies half your field of view (assuming you have a 360 degree field of view) no matter how far you are from it. Given a 2d object of uniform density, the component of the gravitational force towards that object in the direction perpendicular to the plane it lies in is proportional to the solid angle of your field of view it occupies. For an infinite plane, the components in other directions cancel out. I think this is related to how a sphere acts equivalently to a point at its center - an infinite plane is just a sphere of infinite radius.

The situation is similar for an opaque light source (apart from the lack of atmosphere in the way, I don't think the sun would be much brighter if you were much closer to it and looking through a pinhole), but I'm not sure it applies to gamma radiation which is emitted uniformly in all directions from each point and treats most stuff as pretty transparent - unless there's some weird interference you don't get to cancel out the parts coming from different directions.

Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by tomxor on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @01:36PM (#34696987)
Yes, I actually kind of get the infinite part, but thanks for the explanation it's interesting. I was wondering what the intensity looks like for a distance field around a finite plane and how that relates. This might be harder to describe.

What I'm suspecting is that under a certain distance for a given finite plane it's almost constant similar to the infinite version, but outside of that distance there must be some non uniform falloff function.

Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by penteract on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @02:58PM (#34698525)
For a finite circle, where you're on a line perpendicular to it going through its center, the gravitational force you experience towards it is exactly proportional to the amount of your field of view it occupies - if I'm right, that should be proportional to `1-cos(atan(r/d))` where r is the radius of the circle and d is the distance between you and the center of the circle.
Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by gus_massa on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @05:04PM (#34700437)
You are correct. For a short distance it's a almost a constant 1 like an infinite wall with the same charge density. For a long distance is almost 1/r^2 like punctual source. For an intermediate distance, it's a mess and you hope nobody ask for an exact solution.

A rectangle is a mess. It's easier with a circle. The approximations at short and long distance are the same, but a circle has an "easy" formula in between. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/elelin.h... 1-x/sqrt(x^2+R^2) where R is the radio of the circle. Let's use R=10 to keep it simple.

For a short distance 0<x<R/10, then it's almost a constant https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=1-x%2Fsqr%28x%5E2%2B10%...

For a long distance, x>4R it's almost like R^2/(2*x^2) https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=1-x%2Fsqr%28x%5E2%2B10%...

There are some trick to add more term to the approximations to reduce the middle part where both approximations are bad, like using A+Bx or A+Bx+Cx^3 for short distance and D/x^2+E/x^4 or D/x^2+E/x^4+F/x^4 for long distance. It depends on how much you care about the precision and how many calculations you want to do.

In some particular cases like a circle or the shell of a sphere there are closed formulas for the intermediate distances. In other cases there is no nice formula.

Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by rubberpoliceman on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @02:04PM (#34697471)
I don‘t think that‘s unintuitive. What goes into a source-free volume element has to go out of that volume element (radiation or field).
Re:U-Bahn station in Berlin is decorated with radioactive ur... by thehappypm on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @08:01AM (#34707405)
It’s certainly unintuitive to me in that I wouldn’t expect the field an inch and a trillion miles from the sheet to be identical