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Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by pitaj on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:00AM (#34655385)
Moreover, why gas instead of electric backup?
Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by djbusby on Saturday February 04, 2023 @11:06AM (#34655440)
Maybe, like me, they've got existing gas heaters/boilers installed.

When you get a heat-pump you need the backup for really cold (-20c). So you just leave the existing one in for that case.

Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by letitbeirie on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:12PM (#34656059)
Depending on where the furnace is located, it can be cheaper and have a lower carbon footprint.

In my area of the US for example, gas costs 32¢/therm, which equates to 1.1¢/kWh.

Electricity on the other hand costs 6.4¢-10.9¢/kWh (depending on time of day), and while a third of it comes from renewables, another third of it comes from coal, so it ends up being net worse for the environment than just burning the gas.

Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by jupp0r on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:56PM (#34656450)
How long will you operate this? Coal will be gone in a few years.
Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by philwelch on Saturday February 04, 2023 @02:01PM (#34657054)
Even with gas it’s more efficient to burn the gas for heat yourself than for the power plant to burn the gas to operate a turbine which you then use to generate resistive heat.
Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by jupp0r on Monday February 06, 2023 @05:57AM (#34675791)
Why are you comparing electricity production via fossil fuels and not via renewables.
Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by philwelch on Monday February 06, 2023 @12:17PM (#34680629)
If your electricity is actually generated by renewables that’s another situation entirely.
Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by jupp0r on Monday February 06, 2023 @01:29PM (#34681860)
If this does not happen in the next 15 years in developed countries then we have a giant problem. I understand that installing a gas heater right now might be a reasonable personal decision, but I don't understand how one could argue it's the right thing to do from a climate protection angle.
Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by philwelch on Monday February 06, 2023 @02:04PM (#34682366)
It's the right thing to do from a climate protection angle if a significant proportion of your electricity is generated by natural gas, which is what I said to begin with.
Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by jupp0r on Tuesday February 07, 2023 @04:30PM (#34700001)
It is, but only temporarily. Will you switch it over to a heat pump immediately after the cut off point is reached or will you operate till the end of its life before you replace it? If you keep operating it, will it really emit less over its lifetime than switching to a heat pump right now? Making the assumption that today's electricity mix is a steady state is flawed.
Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by kkfx on Saturday February 04, 2023 @03:32PM (#34657950)
> Moreover, why gas instead of electric backup?

Hum, I do not know in you country but here in France the maximum you can get from the grid is 36kW, 12kW per phase, 3 phases. And while the electricity is still far cheaper than in Germany if you try to heat a classic badly insulated home (who have a typical 34-40kW gas heating) with electricity you final bill will be a bit astronomical....

Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by lazide on Sunday February 05, 2023 @12:07AM (#34662111)
US new construction is typically 200 amp (though some go up to 400 amp) 240v ‘split phase’ (so most branch circuits will be 120v). It’s technically single phase though.

So 48-96kw, technically.

Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by kkfx on Sunday February 05, 2023 @04:26PM (#34669613)
So it's more than here for private homes (you can get much more, but only for business) BUT even with enough amps how much it cost per kWh in mean? Here we are from 9.7 cent/kWh for the cheapest hours, 15 cent/kWh for the mean, 67.12 for the most expensive hours of most expensive days (22 days per year in winter, the coldest essentially) i.e. https://www.fournisseurs-electricite.com/edf/tarifs/tempo for business in the "cheap" segment (not more than 36kW) it's from 21 to 25 cent per kWh.
Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by lazide on Sunday February 05, 2023 @07:37PM (#34671643)
CAlifornia is stupid expensive - averaging over $.50/kwh. Other areas are cheaper - Washington and Oregon have a lot of hydro power, and it is usually $.12/kwh or less there.
Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by secabeen on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:32PM (#34714569)
This is changing. Peak cost during summer afternoons is definitely $0.50+/kWh, but most other times are in the $0.20-0.30/kWh range, due to the broad deployment of solar and lower nighttime demand.
Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by brnt on Sunday February 05, 2023 @03:03AM (#34662905)
The first thing you do when looking a heat pumps is discover how overdimensioned gas heaters are. My house has a 20kW unit, and I'm replacing it with a 6-7kW heatpump, based on a calculation of historical use. Note that heat pump are usually placed in houses that are well insulated and thus never cool down; it's designed to run 24/7, not regularly heat up from eg 15C.

Installing a pump without installing insulation (if you need it) is silly.

Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by yetihehe on Sunday February 05, 2023 @09:09AM (#34665002)
I have new home and designer specified 8kW of heating, but I thought it's ridiculously low for such a big home, so I've bought 24kW pellet furnace. Guess what, it averages about 6kW.
Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by kkfx on Sunday February 05, 2023 @04:20PM (#34669550)
I know, I've build a new home, electrically heated and well insulated. An water-water heat pump + and air-air in the VMC, for a total of ~1kW suffice for mild climate (like -2/-5℃ at night) it climb to 3kW for -10/12 and to 4kW to -15/18 outside. Never seen more than 6kW for -25. BUT it's a new home.

Classic homes here are built with rocks and mortar, laid down on grownd, often stitched together in villages to spare a wall or two. As a result they are essentially impossible to insulate: insulating from the outside means agree with others for a job often as expensive al living the home for a new one. From the inside it's even more costly and not always doable since old homes tend to be irregular and with low ceiling resulting a too much internal space loss, not counting the effect of having loss much thermal mass. Toll buildings from just after WWII to the sixties are in even worse shapes, at that time almost no one care about insulation or thermal design because heating was veeeeeery cheap. The old rule in winter was "if it's too hot just open a window, it's cheaper than a thermostat".

These buildings are the MAJORITY of the buildings and their own tend to be not so rich so they'll reach both natural and economical EOL soon and non one have a viable idea of what to do. Rebuilding anything is possible in mere theoretical terms, but in 30+ years, not tomorrow, and only with a public hand keeping costs low and plan with a bit of design instead of building a new real estate rush with similar results of those of the recent past in few decades. In practice though it's next to impossible because vast majority do not want to relocate. In south EU most home owners are middle class or even some low incomes, not just few rich and all other rent from big society.

That's the real point. For EVs and p.v. it's essentially the same: those who live in modern homes have both in mean or can have at least. Almost all others can't. Those who lives in cities have already big parking issues since cities was build far before cars, so with not much room for them, and as well no room for reasonable domestic p.v. systems. Classic homes tend to be badly oriented and many still have no garages. As a result most can only recharge cars from public stations who are spread enough not too few but most are 22kW 3-phase as homes, so you need to find one, occupy it for maybe 4+ hours, move the car thereafter to live the place for another and find a parking for yours now charged. Something stressful enough that most who do not have a private garage simply do not buy EVs.

Evolving civil infrastructures is not such a quick and easy things, especially in dense areas and during economic/social crisis of various kind.

Re:Air-to-Air Heat Exchangers for Healthier Energy-Efficient... by brnt on Monday February 06, 2023 @05:55AM (#34675774)
It depends a bit on how houses are built and how the culture of keeping them maintained is. Here it's feasible for most home owners to renovate. My house is from the 80ies, so some work is required, but not much, to get things compatible with a heat pump. Adding false walls in older houses is common though. The beauty is that these things pay for themselves.

Also, opening a window if it's too hot (in winter) was never a rule here, we must save a penny wherever we can ;)