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Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by AndrewKemendo on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:14PM (#34601242)
Yup - and guess what, the only people hurt by this are the lowest level people. No manager or exec will feel any pain from this incompetence. Someone who isn't responsible but couldn't do their job effectively as a result is having a worse life now.

This is one of the primary reasons why I am totally done with Tech

The distance between users and builders is so excessively far apart now and the levels of abstraction for actually building things that are robust is just not even a consideration in software-centric design. Literally everything you have built after IDK 2000(?) will have exactly this issue. Just hope you're not at a scale that crushes people.

Software is the language of alienation and increasingly becoming unethical, as these systems are becoming increasingly impactful on the most vulnerable with no buttresses or supports preventing this kind of malfeasance.

It's not trivial. These are people's livelihoods at stake.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by Xeoncross on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:18PM (#34601307)
As I sit here spending hours and hours importing packages, installing modules, downloading tools, finding libraries, patching scripts, following deployment guidelines and building gigabytes and gigabytes of artifacts ...for what amounts to a mobile app wrapper around HTML pages.
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by api on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:26PM (#34601431)
The disease has a name: over engineering.

https://www.smart-jokes.org/programmer-evolution.html

Most working programmers are in the middle near “seasoned professional.” They spend all their time thinking about how to manage complexity when they should be thinking about how to avoid it.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by AndrewKemendo on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:32PM (#34601517)
Oh my I hadn't seen this before and it is divine!
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by pas on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @05:06PM (#34602943)
The app epidemic is mostly thanks to one single dead dude. Of course it made (and continues to make) billions to Apple. Then naturally half the industry wanted in on the app store game.

Eventually it might stop being such a cash cow - maybe thanks to endless numbers of teenagers hyping Fortnite.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by layer8 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @08:53PM (#34605285)
To be fair, the tech stacks they have to work with often have staggering amounts of accidental complexity.
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by api on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @05:25AM (#34608693)
It’s seasoned professionals all the way down.
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by omnibrain on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @04:02AM (#34608150)
Only yesterday I encountered a fantastic example. I have to implement an API, there is a swagger/openAPI doc for it, but still, the real interaction and meaning of the calls can be a bit hard to grasp. But the developers provide an example application (in C#).

I expected something basic that implements the login flow and some of the more important calls. Instead I found something that could be described as an C# architecture example application. If I wanted to learn C#, I think I could learn a lot about application patterns from it. MVVM, how to separate the concerns into separate "packages" for reusability and the likes. What I can't really learn from it (without already being a C# pro, I work in other environments) is how to use the API.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by anyfoo on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:57PM (#34601950)
That's one of the reasons I like my low level system level programming job (maybe you could call it "embedded"). Of course it has problems of its own, but this particular area is at least a little bit better.
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by joezydeco on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:02PM (#34602043)
Except the pay sucks. You can make a lot of money concatenating HTML strings.
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by OrbOfConfusion on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:37PM (#34602571)
This is extremely untrue; a barely competent embedded developer can make gobs of money. It's a much rarer skill, somewhere at the intersection of software developer and electrical engineer.
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by javcasas on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @06:42AM (#34609209)
Show me the offers. I have worked as embedded dev some time ago, and my job offer feed keeps sending me embedded opportunities. I'm making significantly more doing JS + React
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by joezydeco on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @08:47AM (#34610304)
I'd love to see this as well. Outside the FAANGs embedded devs are treated as a line-item cost on the BOM. 5 years of experience gets you a "senior" title and salaries here in the midwest cap at $150K with very few exceptions. I'm pretty sure you can make $150K as a freshout writing ReactJS.

Then again I refuse to make FPGAs for HF trading firms, and apparently you can make bank there if you can put up with their crap.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by anyfoo on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:18PM (#34602306)
That is not universally true.
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by spoils19 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @05:16PM (#34603076)
That is universally true.
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by justin66 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @10:39PM (#34606048)
* * *
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by joezydeco on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @10:16AM (#34611606)
I'm not the parent comment here but I'll note that the uptick in IoT/PaaS projects has created a nice niche if you have low level experience + embedded Linux + some cloud API experience. And not just taking an RPi and having it send JSON up to Azure, but defining a platform and creating a whole project full-stack.

Companies are realizing that the IoT node structure is not just a one-shot project that ships and is never maintained. It's part of the revenue stream. So the need for embedded Linux developers is increasing and the experience base out there isn't great. Again, having an RPi in your desk drawer doesn't make you an embedded Linux dev.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by justin66 on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @12:21PM (#34613934)
How do the jobs pay, outside FAANG or whatever? The money for developing embedded software was out of line (far too low) with the difficulty of those jobs and the importance of those systems even before those systems had "IoT" sprinkled all over them.

> So the need for embedded Linux developers is increasing and the experience base out there isn't great. Again, having an RPi in your desk drawer doesn't make you an embedded Linux dev.

Maybe things have changed, but in the past there hasn't been much financial incentive for devs to build up those skills beyond the "RPi in the desk drawer" (zing!) level. "Work hard, make a lot less than a web dev, be less hirable in the future because of your niche skills." I'm speaking as someone who actually did look into what training myself on some of Wind River's products would cost, about eight years ago, and looked into what the jobs paid.

edit: I can see by looking at a grandparent comment that we're probably in agreement

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by eulers_secret on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @06:25PM (#34603855)
This is my experience.

I worked for over 10 years doing Linux Kernel driver implementation. At Intel.

When I quit last year my base was $120k (150 TC). I couldn’t afford a house in the HCOLA I’m in. Remote wasn’t an option. For me a house is a prerequisite to starting a family.

So I left to get housing. Either making more or going remote and moving to a less expensive area.

Embedded is really fun for me, but it just can’t keep up in times of such inflation- especially WRT housing.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by Xeoncross on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @08:40PM (#34605168)
After working on bloated systems at all my day jobs (pick any company) I go home at night and try to figure out how to use delta compression and trees to reduce storage costs on large datasets so I can fit them on $5 VPS or raspberry pi attached storage.

It's so satisfying to use 10,000x less resources to do something like full text search or handle 1,000 tps.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by throwawaysleep on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:42PM (#34601706)
1. The people to blame here are not the builders.

2. The people impacted are employees who now have a few days chilling. I would love to have this problem as an employee.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by sneak on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @03:39PM (#34601633)
I think this is a common refrain but no line-level worker is losing their livelihood because they were part of the 25% of the company whose machine just stopped working.

If anything they are part of the 25% of the company who just got a few extra paid vacation days.

[dead]
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by sillyquiet on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:31PM (#34602494)
no, its not. Not in any white collar professions, not in any blue collar jobs, not in the military, not in academia.

You are only safe when you don't have bosses and all responsibility and power rests on yourself.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by AndrewKemendo on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:35PM (#34602545)
Almost...you find coworkers and share responsibility mutually. You don't need to put it all on your own back.
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by AndrewKemendo on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:41PM (#34602630)
Yes. For example German workers have better than average protection from exploitation

This is from 2018 and shows where you can actually have some rights as a worker. It's not hopeless: https://www.ituc-csi.org/IMG/pdf/ituc-global-rights-index-20...

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by tedunangst on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:54PM (#34602813)
German workers have protection from their company owned laptops being disabled?
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by opamp on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @06:14PM (#34603758)
I would imagine that this is also the case for German tech workers as well.

My point was that tech probably isn't all that different from other professions where there are layers of management on top.

The parent comment made it seem like "tech" was worse than "other," which I'm not sure is true.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by brazzy on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:19PM (#34602323)
> Software is the language of alienation and increasingly becoming unethical, as these systems are becoming increasingly impactful on the most vulnerable with no buttresses or supports preventing this kind of malfeasance.

This doesn't really have that much to do with software. As with many other things, software can make it easier to have this kind of crap, but it is not the cause and not a prerequisite.

Case in point: Franz Kafka wrote The Trial 30 years before ENIAC.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by spelunker on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:37PM (#34602566)
IMO most reasonable managers would not blame the individual contributors for not being able to do their job because of a security and procurement issue that is out of their hands. I suppose it can happen, but if you're working at a place that has management like that perhaps it's time to look around.
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by scns on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @05:35PM (#34603341)
Claiming responsibility or shifting the blame, what is better for your career?
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by LorenPechtel on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @04:41PM (#34602633)
Management will suffer when this mess results in them underperforming.
Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by MilStdJunkie on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @05:55PM (#34603540)
Unfortunately not limited to tech industry. I watched a publications department sit on a blacklisted application stack for five years, as IT - with plenty of warning - kept screaming that it was going to get turned off.

A complete absence of tool selection, migration, or any preparation whatsoever, because the new tool couldn't be funded from leadership, so the horrible ship kept belching forward. Until it was shut down. End result was seventeen people sitting on their thumbs for years.. and a totally fragged publication environment that never recovered, the product of which will - at best - be waived on future contracts at some incredible cost. At worst, it will be yet another barrier to the already marginal business.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by mr_toad on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @10:39PM (#34606038)
> Software is the language of alienation and increasingly becoming unethical,

This was a management problem. They had a plan to retire obsolete devices, but no plan to replace them.

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by raverbashing on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @01:47AM (#34607287)
> They had a plan to retire obsolete devices, but no plan to replace them.

Cool and now I bet they have a new line on their procedures to ensure continuity of service (so that the next management can fumble this in new and creative ways)

Re:In roughly two hours, 1647 devices are about to be wiped by michaelcampbell on Wednesday February 01, 2023 @10:42AM (#34612056)
> This is one of the primary reasons why I am totally done with Tech

I don't get the impression that this a tech-specific issue.