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Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by Retric on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:32PM (#34598336)
Small suburbs can work fine around small cities. Hypothetically, a ring starting 5 miles from the city center extending out another 10 miles = Pi * (15^2 - 5^2) = 628 square miles. At even 1k people per square mile you’re up to 600,000 people reasonably close to the urban core. People can easily commute into the core because the distance and traffic levels are reasonable.

The problem is as cities grow a smaller percentage of the overall population can live in a small suburb. The next 10 mile ring is Pi * (25^5 -15^2) = less than double the area at 1,256 square miles and now needs a longer commute through the inner ring.

PS: Geography adds it’s own constraints. If the cities core in next to the ocean then much of the hypothetical low density ring is under water.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by nightski on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:43PM (#34598545)
I agree with you. Also to me it's the larger cities that are environmentally unfriendly and hostile places like the parent described, not these smaller cities with suburbs. Just look at the 405 on a weekday. I live in a city of about 300k and it is perfect. Under 15 minutes anywhere in the city and I work from home so personally I don't even commute.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by Retric on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @12:48PM (#34598637)
It definitely feels that way, unfortunately high rises are extremely energy, materials, and space efficient. Public transportation similarly reduces the needs for roads and fossil fuels.

NYC inner core may be toxic, but the average New Yorker’s environmental impact is well below the national average.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by nightski on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:17PM (#34600321)
High rises are, but not very many people desire to live in a high rise. Hence the inefficiency. I mean if everyone lived in a 5x5 box it would be super efficient. But yeah, I think people would rather die first.

I'm also curious if you could actually back up that New York statement with some unbiased research.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by Retric on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @02:37PM (#34600645)
I don’t know what you consider unbiased but for stuff like energy use the numbers are very evident. https://financeguru.com/news/new-york-energy-rates-consumpti...

“New York residents were using an average of 572 kWh a month in 2017.” NYC is so efficient that: “New York ranks 50th out of the 51 states and the District of Columbia. The only state with a lower per capita consumption is Rohde Island at 176 million Btu (MMBtu) or 51.6 MWh. The total 2016 U.S. consumption per capita was 301 million Btu (88.2 MWh).”

It’s consistent across different countries, here’s UK’s data: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49639003

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by nightski on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @05:54PM (#34603535)
First you said environmental impact, not electricity usage which is very different.

Second that article makes it really unclear what is being included in "energy expenditures". In the earlier paragraphs it talks about electricity which makes sense given a.) it's extremely expensive in NY and b.) I'd imagine more heating comes from natural gas as opposed to AC in southern climates which comes from electricity.

It lacks a lot of critical information to measure environmental impact vs. other cities.

Lastly who is being included? Inner city residents only? Or metro area?

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by Retric on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @06:09PM (#34603693)
Edit: Feel free to do whatever research or literature review you want I don’t feel like trying to convince you.

Using electricity has an environmental impact. As does burning fossil fuels for heat etc, which is where the BTU numbers show up.

The biggest benefit is land use it’s self has an environmental impact. The ability to leave land for nature requires people not to be living on it. We don’t want wolves and buffalo walking through suburbs. Rabbits etc can’t graze on a paved roads, and drained swamps stop being swamps.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by TimPC on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:03PM (#34598963)
Even a look at current population densities destroys this argument as cities like San Francisco need far more density from this sort of inner ring. Keep in mind the actual core in this model is only 25 square miles so even if the core of San Francisco has 20 times the density of the suburbs it fits only 500,000 people. Your 5-15 mile ring fits only 600,000 people so you’ve gone 15 miles out from the centre of San Francisco and you’ve only fit 1,100,000 or so people of the 1.8 million that live in SF proper to say nothing of any of the people living in nearby cities or suburbs you’ve also hit.
Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by Retric on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:13PM (#34599148)
San Francisco is extremely space constrained due to the Ocean, Bay, and Parks.

If you look at the actual population vs land available it needs a far higher density than I am talking about. 1k people per square mile is really low density. That’s single family homes with 1/2 acre back yard territory.

Re:CA Cities to Lose All Zoning Powers in 2 Days by giantg2 on Tuesday January 31, 2023 @01:04PM (#34598977)
The thing that you and many prior comments mention is proximity, city size, density, and living in a specific place.

The problem isn't about land - there's plenty of that elsewhere. The problem is people all wanting to live in the same area and having high standards. You have a visous cycle where the denser places have the most jobs or the highest paying jobs, while the cost of living goes way up and the standard of living goes down.

It would be nice to have smaller cities. The real problem is how to convince businesses to reinvigorate the dying cities, or for people to change their preferences (either for locality or property type/size). These are being largely ignored in these conversations.