> The male auditors are overdoing the whole showboating thing in a way that creates a bad experience for the rest of the students, and probably doesn't really help their romantic prospects either. Sensible women want to get to know friends in a gradual, natural fashion and perhaps be a little wowed in non-obvious ways.

They aren't looking for sensible women, they're looking for attractive women. IOW, it furthers their goal, even if you think they should have a different goal.

> They aren't looking for sensible women, they're looking for attractive women. IOW, it furthers their goal, even if you think they should have a different goal.

Maybe sensible is what they find attractive. Who are we to say?

Why demonize these young men? It looks like you are injecting your beliefs about them, which is not backed by evidence. And not seeing how it's "wrong" for men to choose who they find attractive, want to associate with, or invest time into. Are men not suppose to have options, but only women are?

An argument where people should not choose what is attractive to them, but what is satisfactory to some outside 3rd party, looks bizarre.

> Why demonize these young men? It looks like you are injecting your beliefs about them, which is not backed by evidence. And not seeing how it's "wrong" for men to choose who they find attractive, want to associate with, or invest time into. Are men not suppose to have options, but only women are?

I'm not demonizing the males involved. I'm not saying anything about my beliefs. I'm not saying it is wrong that they find certain females attractive, or that there is wrong about anything with their choices.

I am saying that the judgements being passed on by the poster are invalid, because the poster's implication (i.e. the women who fall for this are not quality women anyway) is irrelevant.

The young men have certain goals (like attracting a mate/partner/girlfriend), and trivialising their goals because the poster thinks they should have loftier goals (attracting a mate/partner/girlfriend of "better"[1] quality) is pointless and stupid.

IOW, you and I are making the same general argument in this thread, but on the particular comment upthread I was only addressing that poster's implication that the males are doing something wrong (because that poster feels that the males should have the same criteria for "quality partner" as that poster has).

[1] Completely and totally subjective.

FWIW, I never said anything about "quality" of women; the implication that attractive women might be less than "sensible" is your own doing, and I disagree with it. I'm only assuming that these guys would also want to attract or favorably impress these women somehow; if so, what they are doing is not really helpful or conducive to that goal.

> I'm only assuming that these guys would also want to attract or favorably impress these [sensible] women somehow; if so, what they are doing is not really helpful or conducive to that goal.

That's a very big IF. Their goal seems to be to attract an (or more) attractive woman(women). There is no indication that your assumption is in any way correct, and I've no idea why one would assume this.

Your post came off as dismissing their goal of attracting a mate. I just reread it, and it still reads like "If they want to get the CORRECT girls, they're doing it wrong."

What you consider to be "correct" or even "sensible" is completely subjective.

Their criteria is obviously not to get girls that is "correct" under your definition, it's to get girls that are "correct" under their own definition.

If they simply want to impress girls enough to get them to agree to a date, then what they are doing actually is "helpful or conducive to that goal".

The point is not that they should be "getting the correct girls" but "getting the correct attitude and behavior from these same girls" - behavior that helps you romantically, that is. Let's go through this step by step. If you're just barely getting a girl to agree to a date, you're basically back at square one in terms of wooing her - except that now you've also foolishly thrown away a chance to be friendly with her in a way more natural fashion. You're left hoping for something not unlike love at first sight, which is rare. And when these things go south (as they probably will) the girl will quite probably feel bad about it and blame you for that silly, "manipulative" tutoring stunt that got her to agree to a date in the first place. It's just a problematic situation all around.

> ...except that now you've also foolishly thrown away a chance to be friendly with her in a way more natural fashion...

Making way too many assumptions, to include interjecting personal beliefs on how other adults should or are suppose to meet.

These are adults, that have the right to choose how they want to approach and interact with each other, as long as its consenting and legal.

It also comes off as a denial of agency and choice of the adult women involved, as if they can't freely decide to enter a relationship or not. Thus we have 3rd parties wishing to involve themselves, where arguably they should not be placing themselves, to attempt to decide for them (interloping teacher or college) by villainizing or criminalizing the male students. Which at the end of the day, is actually what's wrong.

No, the burden is on those who endorse this silly, obnoxious private tutoring stuff to justify their assumption that it's a good way to get to know people (including but not limited to, in a romantic fashion). You're in a majority female class that you chose specifically for that fact about it, and you can't get your fellow students' attention without ruining the class as an educational experience for everyone else? I'm sorry but that just doesn't seem plausible or right.

> No, the burden is on those who endorse this silly, obnoxious private tutoring stuff

Actually, no. If you want to ban stuff or stop an activity between two consensual adults, you better have a damn good reason, other than it offends me!

> "getting the correct attitude and behavior from these same girls" - behavior that helps you romantically, that is.

They appear to be doing just fine with the girls, which once again makes me question why you think that the girls who welcome these advances are behaving incorrectly.

Everything else you say is purely wishful thinking on your part and there is literally no evidence that the males are not getting whatever it is they are aiming to get.

The complaints, remember, are not coming from those girls who date, it's coming from the professor (who is unhappy about this), and from the girls who aren't getting advances.

The TLDR is this: There's no obvious evidence for any of your conjecture about how courtship should go; in this case it obviously is going correctly if the girls who get advances aren't complaining, but the ones who don't are complaining.

Nevermind the utterly terrible character-building these guys are cultivating for themselves. Of course, a few will get lucky, but most won't and what next "get rich quick" scheme, broadly speaking, will they look for?

Reminds me of kids in my high school classes that would misbehave and cause disruptions, which would cause a disruption for everybody else, but the teacher really couldn't do anything about it because short of violence, you couldn't kick them out of the class.

> Sensible women want to get to know friends in a gradual, natural fashion and perhaps be a little wowed in non-obvious ways.

How do you befriend these "sensible women" if it's apparently not okay to go where they are -- because they're there?

I've done the opposite to what these guys do by ignoring this when choosing my education, so I met basically no female peers from HS to higher education to _now_.

Discussion around this question really reinforces my conviction that things are fuc*d beyond point of repair. "Get to know friends in a gradual, natural fashion"? Lol, impossible, because you can't even meet people without it being an issue.