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Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by arrrg on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @05:22AM (#34516635)
Is it necessary to fire them? That's the relevant question we should ask ourselves.

A hiring freeze and marking obsolete positions as obsolete (meaning if someone switches teams or quits that specific position will not be replaced) should be a workable model for all profitable companies with some cash reserves. Sure, it takes a bit longer and probably costs a bit more (though probably not tons and lay offs also have other traumatic effects concerning knowledge loss, morale and motivation that can negatively affect the business) but it's a workable model.

Embed that into overall more cautious hiring in good times (yeah, we can't time travel, so that's not an option - but to me that's the thing that should be learned from this) and you should never have to do any layoffs if your business is basically sound. I would be shocked, for example, if Apple were to do any lay offs. They seem to follow that approach (well, probably not in the retail context which I also think is unfortunate).

To me it seems like those lay offs are primarily a tool to communicate and that just sucks. It sucks that something that should clearly be seen as a management failure (if you need to do lay offs it seems to me obvious that management is to blame, not those laid off) can in this weird upside down world be used as a communication tool towards the wider world that they are doing something useful. Even if it wouldn't be needed.

Also, I just don't think people should be treated like that, especially if it's not needed. It seems so pointlessly cruel and inhuman. This is not the world I want to live in.

And I know that's hard to pull off in capitalism. Maybe that's the issue. Though it's not as if you cannot modify capitalism to at least not allow for stuff like this.

Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by mshake2 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @05:31AM (#34516693)
>Is it necessary to fire them? That's the relevant question we should ask ourselves.

That's not the relevant question. The relevant questions are: were the layoffs illegal, and if they weren't, then why is it any of your business? If you don't want to live in that world, start your own startup, hire people, and never fire them. Nobody is stopping you.

Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by arrrg on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @05:39AM (#34516743)
Do you think it‘s pointless to talk about the ethics of decisions of other people, especially if those decisions affect several thousand people? Do you think anything that is legal is also ethical?

Also, in general I don’t live in that world. It‘s much harder for sound companies to just lay off people in Germany (though not impossible).

Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by mshake2 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @05:53AM (#34516834)
I don't think it's productive or wise to speculate on decisions that restrict the free association of people. Outside of narrow circumstances, an employer should not be legally required to employ someone any more than an employee should be legally required to work at the company.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by piva00 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @06:09AM (#34516937)
Why is it so easy for you to disregard any kind of power/leverage relationship about labour and employment? Reality isn't that simple nor that reductionist.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by arolihas on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @10:53AM (#34519763)
It's easier to not care about anything if you decide your only principle is "the free association of people". It's one of the easiest ways to do whatever you want in your life and not give a damn about the impact it has on others without having to feel any guilt or cognitive dissonance.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @10:57AM (#34519836)
Nothing wrong with free association of people though. Unionization is also an example of free association: people coming together to maximize leverage and minimize power imbalances.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by arolihas on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @11:05AM (#34519954)
There's nothing wrong with the principle itself. I'm obviously not a fan of slavery etc. Just when people narrow in on it and act like it's the only priority/thing worth talking about. I was trying to criticize the myopic focus on that.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @11:15AM (#34520109)
Then I agree with you. Rational employees should not want to associate with unreliable employers. This ought to drive up the prices corporations are forced to pay. It should cost them actual money to disregard people like this. If employees feel pressured to associate with them despite their behavior, then it is not free association at all, it is forced association and its causes must be identified and remedied. Usually it's a lack of leverage leading to worse negotiating positions.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by piva00 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @06:36PM (#34525740)
Yeah, what bugs me is this reduction into a model to then derive all their worldview of reality, it's backwards. Like the spherical cow, free association is a pretty fucking good model and principle but when applied to reality you really ought to add the details to the model to make it realistic and actually work when applied into reality.

Free association in labour is not possible when there's so much leverage from one of the sides of the negotiation. In a perfect idealised model, labour will increase in price due to people not accepting jobs they would, ideally, not think it's worth it, companies will then raise salaries, market equilibrium! In reality people are mothers, fathers, or just basically anyone who needs something to eat, and for food they'll accept any trade to keep some part of their dignity.

A fucking spherical cow-ish principle doesn't take into account human dignity into their pricing models... And so these people work backwards by adapting that if it's not accounted for it's irrelevant, rather than the opposite reality that we experience.

Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by mshake2 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @07:18PM (#34526149)
Or maybe you don't know how I feel and I can come to different conclusions that aren't a result of me "not giving a damn" about people. Not everyone who disagrees with you is evil.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by arolihas on Thursday January 26, 2023 @10:54AM (#34533306)
Why is it so easy for you to disregard any kind of power/leverage relationship about labour and employment?
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by mshake2 on Friday January 27, 2023 @02:54PM (#34550912)
I'm not disregarding it, I just think it's not represented accurately.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by piva00 on Monday January 30, 2023 @03:38AM (#34577283)
Not trying to be rhetorical, why/how is it not represented accurately?
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by tkfu on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @06:14AM (#34516971)
This is one of those worldviews that seems to be common among US-Americans, but sounds totally bizarre from an outside perspective. You say "If you don't want to live in that world, start your own startup, hire people, and never fire them.", but why should that be my course of action instead of working collectively to make sure that companies' decisions are driven by all stakeholders--owners (shareholders), employees, customers, and regulators to the extent that the company's actions generate negative externalities. Why should that be my course of action instead of advocating for change, and expressing my displeasure and outrage when large companies act in ways that I would never accept from a human being with empathy? Yes it's my business, because I live in the world, in a society, and everyone who lives in a society is affected by everyone else.

I was really fascinated to learn that most North Americans never even encounter the concept of ordocapitalism/ordoliberalism in their basic economics courses. Somehow, a concept of capitalist economic organization that has been the recipe for success for the creation of most successful economic turnaround in modern times is just...ignored?

Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by melagonster on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @07:00AM (#34517242)
I am not American. I never read one of two words before. yes, guess I think this in my whole life...
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by mshake2 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @06:01PM (#34525382)
>This is one of those worldviews that seems to be common among US-Americans, but sounds totally bizarre from an outside perspective. You say "If you don't want to live in that world, start your own startup, hire people, and never fire them."

The beauty of America is you can do my suggestion (make your own startup, run it without firing people), but in other places where layoffs are illegal, you can't do the opposite suggestion (make your own startup, fire people). Let the best idea win! But you seem to be endorsing a world where you don't want the best idea to win, you want the state to enforce a particular idea that makes you feel good.

If you are free to run a company however you want within the bounds of the law, but only one type of company emerges, maybe there is a reason for that.

Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by doctor_eval on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @07:34AM (#34517499)
> The relevant questions are: were the layoffs illegal, and if they weren't, then why is it any of your business?

I think a more relevant question is: should the layoffs be illegal?

Just because todays law says “tough luck” doesn’t mean it has always been, or will always be, that way, or that we can’t argue for something better.

Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by capitalsigma on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @08:28AM (#34517998)
Obviously no, they shouldn't. You're not going to be able to keep that 6+ figure salary in a world where layoffs are illegal.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by ericd on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @10:17AM (#34519223)
I'd keep in mind that if you make it risky to hire you, you're less likely to get hired.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by rightbyte on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @07:58AM (#34517702)
> were the layoffs illegal, and if they weren't, then why is it any of your business?

If the layoffs were uneccesary you know to treat the company and its executives as worse to work for than they would be if they did necessary layoffs only.

I.e. increase the cost of hiring you.

The "none of your business" trope is silly. Why not warm each other of shitty things, be it a bad restaurant or MS as an employer.

Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by lxgr on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @08:11AM (#34517816)
Is discussing the layoffs illegal, and if it isn‘t, why is it any of your business?
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by danaris on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @09:25AM (#34518569)
The law should be the absolute lower bound on our ethics, not where the conversation starts and ends.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @10:54AM (#34519784)
How is it not everyone's business? People should be aware of how flaky these corporations are and demand higher pay to compensate for the added instability due to the risk of getting fired out of nowhere associated with working for them.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by IX-103 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @12:54PM (#34521662)
Why would it not be any of our business? Corporations only exist because they received the explicit blessing of the government. This gives them and their owners extra rights (limited liability for example) and tax benefits.

Originally corporate charters were hard to get because they were only issued by the Crown. Nowadays you can get one for a few dollars. We need to ask ourselves if they are still serving the public purpose we intend, and if not how we need to adjust things.