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Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by arrrg on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @05:39AM (#34516743)
Do you think it‘s pointless to talk about the ethics of decisions of other people, especially if those decisions affect several thousand people? Do you think anything that is legal is also ethical?

Also, in general I don’t live in that world. It‘s much harder for sound companies to just lay off people in Germany (though not impossible).

Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by mshake2 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @05:53AM (#34516834)
I don't think it's productive or wise to speculate on decisions that restrict the free association of people. Outside of narrow circumstances, an employer should not be legally required to employ someone any more than an employee should be legally required to work at the company.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by piva00 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @06:09AM (#34516937)
Why is it so easy for you to disregard any kind of power/leverage relationship about labour and employment? Reality isn't that simple nor that reductionist.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by arolihas on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @10:53AM (#34519763)
It's easier to not care about anything if you decide your only principle is "the free association of people". It's one of the easiest ways to do whatever you want in your life and not give a damn about the impact it has on others without having to feel any guilt or cognitive dissonance.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @10:57AM (#34519836)
Nothing wrong with free association of people though. Unionization is also an example of free association: people coming together to maximize leverage and minimize power imbalances.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by arolihas on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @11:05AM (#34519954)
There's nothing wrong with the principle itself. I'm obviously not a fan of slavery etc. Just when people narrow in on it and act like it's the only priority/thing worth talking about. I was trying to criticize the myopic focus on that.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by matheusmoreira on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @11:15AM (#34520109)
Then I agree with you. Rational employees should not want to associate with unreliable employers. This ought to drive up the prices corporations are forced to pay. It should cost them actual money to disregard people like this. If employees feel pressured to associate with them despite their behavior, then it is not free association at all, it is forced association and its causes must be identified and remedied. Usually it's a lack of leverage leading to worse negotiating positions.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by piva00 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @06:36PM (#34525740)
Yeah, what bugs me is this reduction into a model to then derive all their worldview of reality, it's backwards. Like the spherical cow, free association is a pretty fucking good model and principle but when applied to reality you really ought to add the details to the model to make it realistic and actually work when applied into reality.

Free association in labour is not possible when there's so much leverage from one of the sides of the negotiation. In a perfect idealised model, labour will increase in price due to people not accepting jobs they would, ideally, not think it's worth it, companies will then raise salaries, market equilibrium! In reality people are mothers, fathers, or just basically anyone who needs something to eat, and for food they'll accept any trade to keep some part of their dignity.

A fucking spherical cow-ish principle doesn't take into account human dignity into their pricing models... And so these people work backwards by adapting that if it's not accounted for it's irrelevant, rather than the opposite reality that we experience.

Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by mshake2 on Wednesday January 25, 2023 @07:18PM (#34526149)
Or maybe you don't know how I feel and I can come to different conclusions that aren't a result of me "not giving a damn" about people. Not everyone who disagrees with you is evil.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by arolihas on Thursday January 26, 2023 @10:54AM (#34533306)
Why is it so easy for you to disregard any kind of power/leverage relationship about labour and employment?
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by mshake2 on Friday January 27, 2023 @02:54PM (#34550912)
I'm not disregarding it, I just think it's not represented accurately.
Re:Macroeconomic Changes Have Made It Impossible for Me to W... by piva00 on Monday January 30, 2023 @03:38AM (#34577283)
Not trying to be rhetorical, why/how is it not represented accurately?