I completely disagree about caffeine. https://www.verywellmind.com/how-does-caffeine-affect-people...

"if you don't learn to focus it." this is nonsensical and harmful

Is the long term consumption of caffeine really a good idea?

I would expect the tolerance build up to negate the positive effects fairly quickly. Most people that need to have their coffee in the morning are NOT more awake than a non-coffee drinker but need the coffee to just reach their normal baseline.

So you would need higher and higher dosages to see any positive effects and at that point you get nasty side-effects like heart racing and insomnia.

Some of the effects of caffeine are subject to diminishing with tolerance, others are not.

People develop tolerance at different rates, and it depends on dose and usage pattern, etc. It's not hard to use caffeine a lot and never develop a strong tolerance. (Probably not true for everyone, And it's a different story if you've already been drinking multiple cups of coffee every day for decades).

There's some really fascinating research on caffeine use out there, highly recommend that rabbit hole for the interested.

Caffeine isn't heroin: tolerance plateaus after a few weeks of drinking coffee daily.

> nasty side-effects like heart racing and insomnia

I've been drinking coffee daily for two decades now and haven't ever experienced heart racing, nor insomnia if I limit my consumption to the A.M.

People do process caffeine wildly differently through. I apparently have genes that make me not very sensitive to caffeine at all, but I know this isn't true for everyone.

Once upon a time I could drink a full pot of coffee every morning and feel fine. Now a single caffeinated (sugar-free) soda makes me feel terrible: racing heart, anxiety, shakiness. I've tried exposing myself to more caffeine to get used to it again. No dice. Bodies are weird.

What doesn't mix for me is caffeine and Focalin. When I'm not on Focalin, I can drink caffeine in moderation and feel fine. A single cup of coffee when I'm on Focalin, and I'm going to get so much less quality sleep that I feel like a wet dishrag in the morning.

Depends on the person. Caffeine is a mixed bag for people with adhd and related disorders. If wasn't, we'd all just be taking caffeine pills and call it a day, yet we don't. It does work in some cases, specifically if you throttle your intake so you don't build up tolerance and use it intermittently.

And you can learn to focus your adhd traits and exploit them.

If you combine intermittent caffeine use with an intentional time-bound task, yes, very powerful combo.

Using caffeine as part of a routine and the binging youtube for 6 hours, unbounded time is a nightmare, esp if your days are blurred and you do it weeks at a time. You are basically then just shotgunning your mind further.

This seems like a very puritanical viewpoint. So much so, that it's a little peculiar and almost feels like a caricature. A life of avoidance does not help an ADHD brain, and the idea that your brain wants stuff to do is not the case at all. You will burn out very quickly going down that path. You'll get much further just taking a few times a day to slow your thoughts via meditation or engaging in a passive activity that allows constructive mind-wandering.

Hell, I'd even recommend medicating over locking your whole life down and living in fear of your own brain.

Maybe some people need to go very puritanical to survive and to succeed in the modern world with its almost-constant easy access to entertainments, distractions and mental stimulations.

I'm probably one of them. And the meds I have tried typically prescribed for ADHD have done more harm than good. Specifically I've tried Ritalin, Adderal and modafinil.

Actually that is not true: modafinil did more good than harm, and the other 2 weren't significantly harmful (because I was smart enough to stop taking them as soon as I noticed they didn't help on net).

But the point is that modafinil didn't help me with the problem we are discussing here. (Modafinil reduces the amount of REM sleep I get, even if I take it in the morning, and my trying modafinil iw what caused me to notice that reducing my REM sleep would be a good idea, which motivated me to find a better non-drug way to reduce REM sleep, after which I had no use for modafinil.)

I'm not denying that some people have a harder time than others, but to restrict an ADHD brain is not unlike repressing a child. The "distractions" are only distractions to an orderly system - it does not imply that your brain is inherently disorderly, only that it doesn't mesh with the order defined by our society. Learning to reconcile the gap between your natural strengths as an ADHD individual and those needed to make it in the modern world will work far better than trying to shoehorn yourself into a set of rules that your brain refuses to comply with. Living without fulfillment will only further muddy the ADHD mind.

Medicine is a shortcut to that, but as you've already noted, it's a huge undertaking of trial-and-error, and may only amount to a transitory solution. Nonetheless, if it carries you forward even a little, it's a worthwhile endeavor.

You describe it as "living without fulfillment", but if the average internet-connect white-collar Western person stopped all consumption of video entertainment, news and non goal-direct use of the web and the smartphone, then after adjustment period of a month or so, I suspect that the remaining pleasures in their lives would become more fulfilling with the result that their average level of fulfillment would be about the same as it currently is.

I think that that is just how the human motivational system works: there is a set point, and if for example I get hit by a car and lose the use of my legs, my life gets much suckier for a while, but a month or so after I have settled in to being paralyzed (i.e., I have gained enough experience with it to have a practical understanding or knowledge-grounded-in-lived-experience of all the significant new constraints on my life) I will be about as happy or as miserable as I am now.

Would you agree with my theory of the set point?

If so, what I am missing? I don't see anything wrong or irrational about the manner of living described in the original comment that you disagreed with, namely,

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34487431

> stopped all consumption of video entertainment, news and non goal-direct use of the web and the smartphone, then after adjustment period of a month or so, I suspect that the remaining pleasures in their lives would become more fulfilling with the result that their average level of fulfillment would be about the same as it currently is.

I wholly agree with this, as I've done it myself, but nothing about this requires treating oneself like they are "born in sin". This whole idea of "I'm a broken person so I must live a curtailed life" is lifted straight from Puritan ideals. In fact, a lot of American culture carries the tinge of Puritanism still, as if it's the only solution against the Wests' hedonistic level of distractions.

The reality is that a bit of self-examination can help one monitor the ebb and flow of their attention, and maximize it for effectiveness. Putting guard rails on every corner of your life will likewise limit the positive elements of having a wandering mind. As a good autistic friend of mine put it: "my disability is my superpower". He doesn't hide away in his room out of fear that his poor social skills will offend someone.

Unless you have it you don't know what it feels like. This sort of generic advice is useless when you're awake in bed at 8:30 AM, still trying to sleep from last night but you can't because you can't physically stop yourself from doom scrolling on your phone.

The only thing that really works is an unbreakable commitment device, make it so that the only thing you can do in any given situation is the right thing.

I do have it, so the rest of your highly presumptive comment became moot after the first sentence.

Everyone who doesn't have it talks about it more or less like the way you did, "oh... why don't they just learn to control it like me instead of having all these rules".

My comment is highly presumptive because your comment was extremely stereotypical of people who make light of it, maybe stop using words like 'puritanical' when describing what works for other people. Your impairments might be light to non-existent, doesn't mean mine are.

Once again, you're being presumptive. I have a rather severe case of ADHD co-morbid with PTSD, and nothing that I've stated as a solution is easy. If anything, it requires more discipline than simply cutting out temptations. You will need to learn to recognize when "it's time" and step away to re-calibrate. This requires knowing oneself and being transparent about your problems with others.

The routes described prior are extremely puritanical, and if you don't see that, I am sorry that you are stuck wielding such repressive methods. They will be more of a detriment in the long run, as you realize that they do nothing to address your thought patterns. I am speaking from experience, as that doesn't seem to have been made clear.

You guys can stop fighting. ADHD is an broad label for what is becoming increasingly obvious are separate conditions, and I think they are up to at least 2 different types and then a third with mixed symptoms of both.

What works for someone else may not work for you and vice versa, that's okay, it doesn't have to turn into you two being condescending assholes to each other or accusing the other of faking ADHD.

The question was how you personally deal with your ADHD and they answered with what they do personally to deal with their ADHD, stop shitting all over them and talking down to them for being on topic. If you wanna give constructive advice you can do without being a jerk about it.

You lecturing anybody on being a condescending asshole is like the pot calling the kettle black. Any air of condescension in my tone never amounted to being retaliatory at most, as with this comment, so goodbye and consider your time wasted.

Time wasted would be an accurate assessment so I won't bother continuing this discussion, you have yourself a nice night and/or day.

First, sorry. I was probably needlessly aggressive, I've heard similar words from everyone around me all my life and I may have assumed you were being similarly dismissive and gotten a bit angry.

I'm not saying you have to use commitment devices forever, but it's a great starting point. When one is deep into their faulty harmful behaviors, it's hard to have the mental energy to practice mindfulness and take a step back and exercise any sort of control over one's impulses. Maybe nine of out of ten times you may be successful in practicing mindfulness, but commitment devices[0] help you prevent that 1/10 from blowing your entire day up(or even week), precisely because they don't depend on your mental state at all. They let you precommit and make good decision for your future self when you are in a good state of mind, so you won't completely spiral down when you're in a bad state of mind. It's just another tool in the toolbox for dealing with ADHD.

[0] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Commitment_device

With that, I do agree. I encourage my peers to pull "hard stops" when they find that they are entrenched in their habits. For me, it was dropping social media, putting the "procrastination" timer on my HN profile, etc. But I always caution that if one doesn't gradually reintroduce the situations in which they struggled before, they will not have actually improved, just hidden themselves from failure.

I'm likewise sorry if I came off as dismissive, as that was never my goal. I was more concerned than anything. I am aware that a great deal of people downplay the impact of living with ADHD, and that can cause no end to frustration. This very thing led to me dropping out of college. However, I'd also like my easily-distracted brethren to see how they are empowered by their disability as well, and my goals were more to that end.

Not puritanical-intended at all.

The point being, remove all the stuff from your environment that hammers the brain 24/7, become a bit calmer, then use your newly freed minutes for intentional time-bound actions.

The way we all live is not normal to begin with.

I agree with your point here, but your methodology seems very strict. Almost to the point of self-defeat, because turning to a distraction and finding it isn't there isn't improved attention, only distraction with more steps. I do hope you find your balance, and whatever gets you there is your own, but having grown up under the same approach you're describing, I can attest to the likelihood of an eventual collapse.

>having grown up under the same approach you're describing, I can attest to the likelihood of an eventual collapse.

These words are what got me finally to understand why you felt strongly enough to participate in this discussion. Thank you.

Agree with locking down sites/apps - if you find your hands just start auto typing addresses in the toolbar as a coping mechanism for dopamine hits then lock up the problem sites and throw away the key. Set the redirect to something to try to queue you/remind you why you have it blocked (e.g a webpage with a quote). Leechblock is a good in browser alternative if you are on a work pc without access to pihole (e.g. through vpn etc) - you can set password and throw it away.

I would also add to all of this if you have the ability to work in person with your screen visible it may help you to keep on track if you feel pressure of being "caught" slacking. Research "body doubling" multiple approaches to this.

Above might seem extreme but some tricks like this can help you use your other psychological traits as a stick against your adhd trait (because we all know the carrot only lasts temporarily).

disagree on caffeine, which has shown to have neuroprotective effects, and also enhance neuroplasticity.

and the dopamine/norepinephrine release helps focus/motivation/concentration.

coffee is not for me, a bit too jittery/anxious unless I hit the perfect dose ... but Yerba Mate tea has been a gamechanger.