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Re:Apple now has more cash than Microsoft by unalone on Sunday October 26, 2008 @03:47PM (#344514)
I think that some of these things are a matter of personal preference. And I agree with you on some things and I can see why you think others, but I'd still like to put in an argument about some of the things that you mention, as a member of the Loyal Opposition.

Non-resizeable windows (only one corner)

This is something that I found myself really liking: it makes the windows feel more stable to me. I know that I can move a window by clicking the chrome in an app, and that that's ALL clicking the chrome does, and I know what corner I need to use to resize. Going back to Windows, the windows seemed much clunkier and much less focused for precisely that reason.

Non-maximizale windows

This one seems odd at first, but it fits in with the aesthetic that the window scheme tries to use, namely: the windows are not the entire experience of the computer. It encourages more focus on actually manipulating items between windows when there's no option to stick the window to the sides of the screens. Frankly, I think that Apple ought to ditch the + button entirely, since I don't see a point in maximizing at all. I think that a full screen keyboard shortcut across applications would work much better for when you only need one application at a time. A few apps have it already; I think Apple ought to standardize that.

File open dialog doesn't have a edit field for me to type a file name, so I can't quickly open /etc/whaterver when I need to.

That's related to Finder, which I think is absolutely the worst part of the OS. Rumor has it Finder's being replaced in 10.6; we can only hope.

Spaces are dysfunctional: applications aren't isolated in their virtual desktops, all mixed up together in a giant Alt+Tab list

What do you mean? You can set applications either to stick to one desktop, or make it open-ended and move windows where you see fit. Or do you mean that Spaces lets you move applications that are "stuck" to other windows? In which case you're right, but when I used Spaces I found it much easier to deal with when I could quickly navigate around. (I don't see the point of virtual spaces whatsoever, so perhaps my perspective isn't the most useful here.)

Finder is a joke: nearly impossible to use without a mouse and its list of limitations is well known

Agreed. It's better on a laptop, since I find that multitouch makes navigation really simple when you're in the windowpane view (which, by the way, is the single best view that I've found in any OS), but it still needs a lot of fixes.

Poor keyboard support (users are unable to assign hot keys they want, generally limited to a pre-defined list), many functions aren't available for keyboard users (cut/paste files, resize/move windows and many more). Hey, I can't even get to a specific top-level menu item from a keyboard. That's something even Windows 3.0 could easily do. Fuck, even most confirmation dialogs on OSX have keyboard disabled: you're forced to use the mouse to pick Yes/No/Cancel. Jesus...

That's because OS X focuses on using a hybrid of keyboard and mouse. I get where you're coming from, and I think it would be nice to have more focus on keyboard-only out of the box, but there are plug-ins that fix those problems, and I've found the hybrid that Apple encourages to be pretty easy to use.

Poor window/application management. The concept of "every app can be switched to and everybody shares a menu" doesn't work, and stop pretending that it does. On my Mac I have only Safari running yet my "Alt-Tab" list is HUGE: it includes background-running Audim, Skype, Performance Monitor and Finder - 6 apps total with only one (!) visible window.

I'm guessing you were using a euphemism, but: what "alt-tab" list? Do you mean cmd-tab? And you're talking about a difference in window philosophy: Linux and Windows tie a single visible process to each window. Apple treats windows and applications differently: windows have their own key command to switch between. I like it a lot more that way. I like that you get a visible list of what's running in the background, and that you can quickly get to whatever process you want with the keyboard. But - as I said - a lot of that is a matter of difference.

I could go on and on forever. For instance I've failed to find a working solution that allows me to use Spotlight to pull up links I saved on del.icio.us. Gnome has it built-in.

The fact that Gnome has built-in support for a web application's functioning is indicative of the philosophy that I don't like: built-in support for external systems rather than an attempt to rely entirely on internals. I've never been a fan of del.icio.us, so take that entire opinion as-is. This looks like it works, though: http://www.ianhenderson.org/delimport.html

I can't address some of your things - the only coding I do is web-related, and Coda has the best FTP support I can think of, but I'm no expert - but there are different ways to achieve usability. For me, being able to drag a song from iTunes onto another application is an example of great usability, even though it's not a power-user sort of shortcut. It's a casual shortcut, and it makes my day-to-day life a little bit easier. And that's where the gap is between the Linux crew and the Mac crew, and it's one that I doubt will be bridged any time soon. But I think that for either side to dismiss the other as blindsightedness or stupidity is a mistake. Both sides have merits for different users.

Re:Apple now has more cash than Microsoft by lhorn on Sunday October 26, 2008 @10:23PM (#344763)
Wow, great feedback, thanks for sharing. I largely agree with you on almost all accounts, but my point was not "OSX sucks", I was saying that "Gnome/Linux have a great UI too". For instance in Gnome there is a concept of "horizontally maximized window" or "vertically maximized window" (both have super-flexible hot key assignments), so when I am working with an application that suddenly spits out a lot of information in a window (terminal is a prime example) I can quickly maximize it vertically and quickly go back. Moreover, there is a concept of "window groups" that allow me to "merge" several windows into one and flip it when I need to: great of debugger/code windows or HTML/Browser or whatever. My point is that OSX simply won't let you do that.

When I'm talking about "virtual desktop isolation", I mean that under Linux, applications running in different desktops don't mix: Alt-Tab list (or Command/Tab in OSX) is separate for each desktop, and an application running in desktop A cannot open a prompt on desktop B (something I see happen frequently in OSX: Skype may have a contact list in desktop A, but it opens pop-ups on desktop B, same applies to safari and numerous other apps). Under Linux each "space" or "virtual desktop" feels like another computer altogether: I often run up to 5 desktops on Linux with 10-15 apps running in them, while on OSX it quickly becomes a huge mess: sometimes I hear the sound of someone having sent me a message via Skype but I can't find the goddamn window - it can be anywhere and Command-Tab list is useless.

Back to del.icio.us issue: no, Gnome does not have it "built-in" but Gnome has a very rich system of plug-ins for its desktop search feqture. The community is quite active and del.icio.us plug-in is bundled as an option with Gnome itself, along with a huge list of others. This is a prime example of where a commercial body (Apple Inc) can't compete with the crowd. And no, delimport does not work: I've tried (along with 3 or 4 other apps).

I am not bashing OSX, in fact I'm typing this words in it right now, all I'm saying is that when in comes to UI, Linux is not behind at all, in fact I believe it's ahead of everybody else in some aspects of usability. It's hard to beat Apple because of their "whole banana" philosophy: MBP+OSX is a great combination of hardware/software, something that Windows/Linux simply can't do.

Re:Apple now has more cash than Microsoft by unalone on Sunday October 26, 2008 @11:30PM (#344795)
I love having discussions like this: I like meeting people that I can talk with without having it before a flamefest.

That "window groups" seems really interesting, as does the hor/vert maximization. I don't know if I've ever seen that before. The groups in particular seems really nice: that would almost serve to do away with apps like Coda (which I use to program on the Mac, and which advertises a one-window everything device), at least for the sake of getting things done for cheap.

The virtual desktop isolation makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the clarification! I agree: it would be really nice to have an option for completely separating the spaces from one another. Chalk that up as another thing I didn't know Gnome could do.

Sorry my del.icio.us program didn't work. What fails with it? I'm curious, since it advertises indexing directly. You could try importing your bookmarks as Safari bookmarks, then opening them up like that? Though I don't think Spotlight handles bookmarks very well. I know Google Bookmarks get indexed, but handling two bookmarks sites isn't optimal.

Re:Apple now has more cash than Microsoft by lhorn on Monday October 27, 2008 @12:26AM (#344833)
Sorry my del.icio.us program didn't work. What fails with it? I'm curious, since it advertises indexing directly.

I dunno. It just sits there (running) but nothing ever shows up in Spotlight. May be an issue on del.icio.us side, though: they're known for changing/breaking their APIs.

Safari bookmarks get picked up fine and I use it frequently.

Re:Apple now has more cash than Microsoft by LogicHoleFlaw on Monday October 27, 2008 @01:18PM (#345289)
I'm running Ubuntu/Gnome right now. One killer feature for me is a particular keybinding I have set up for the 'Windows' key. If I hold it down then I can left-click and drag anywhere on a window and it will move with the mouse. If I hold it and middle-click and drag it resizes the window. And if I hold it and right-click then the title-bar context menu pops up right at the mouse pointer. It eliminates seeking or overshooting the titlebar or corners for window manipulation. I love it.
Re:Apple now has more cash than Microsoft by unalone on Monday October 27, 2008 @05:26PM (#345614)
That sounds like a nice little feature.