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Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lumb63 on Sunday January 15, 2023 @02:45PM (#34392539)
I can’t discuss my former role in too much detail, but it has convinced me that all the above is insufficient in a number of very realistic threat models.

One issue is that software has vulnerabilities and bugs. I’m not talking about the software that users run in sandboxes environments. I’m talking about the sandboxes environments. I’m talking about cryptography implementations. I’m talking about the firmware running in the “trusted” hardware.

The other major issue is as you alluded to: the need to trust vendors and hardware. Without protection and monitoring at the physical level, the user has no way to verify the operation of the giant stack of technology designed to “protect them”. Without the ability to verify operations, how is the user to trust anything? Why do companies tell users to “trust them” without any proof they are trustworthy?

This may seem like a minor point, but this is really the crux of the issue. Building this giant house of cards on top of a (potentially) untrustworthy hardware root of trust does not buy anyone anything. Certainly it does not buy “security”.

Large companies and nation states are the most likely adversaries one wants to be wary of these days (e.g. journalists, whistleblowers, etc.). What good does the technology do them if the supply chain is compromised or vendors are coerced to insert backdoors? These are the threats that actually face people concerned about security, not whether or not their executables are run in a sandboxed VM or not. Great, you’ve stopped the adversary from inserting malicious code into your device after purchase. Good thing for them, they did it prior to or during manufacture.

The technology you alluded to above is mainly useful for protecting company IP from end users, IMO. That’s how I’ve mainly seen it used, and the marketing of “security for the user” is a gimmick to justify the process.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this entire class of security issue since I am used to working on air gapped systems. I don’t care if you are operating in a sandboxed VM with a randomized MAC over a VPN over Tor. If you’re communicating with any other device over the Internet, you have to trust every single other machine along the way. And you shouldn’t.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by akiselev on Sunday January 15, 2023 @03:10PM (#34392809)
> The other major issue is as you alluded to: the need to trust vendors and hardware. Without protection and monitoring at the physical level, the user has no way to verify the operation of the giant stack of technology designed to “protect them”. Without the ability to verify operations, how is the user to trust anything? Why do companies tell users to “trust them” without any proof they are trustworthy?

At the end of the day you need to trust Qualcomm or MediaTek. The Oracle of the hardware world, with more lawyers than engineers, or... MediaTek.

That's a NOPE for me.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by drozycki on Sunday January 15, 2023 @03:22PM (#34392919)
AFAIK there are no phones on the market with open-source baseband firmware, so you have to trust one of Qualcomm, Broadcom et al with access to all cellular communication. Do you have a best of breed supplier you’ve vetted?
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by bigiain on Sunday January 15, 2023 @05:29PM (#34394302)
And even if you _could_ trust the baseband on your device, there’s the problem that the cell tower is running software you have no visibility of.

If I were the NSA, that’s where I’d be focussing at least some of the attention of the “exploit people’s phones” department. If you want cellular connectivity, the cellular provider needs a real time way to identify your device and it’s location (at least down to neatest few cell towers accuracy).

(And once I had some capability there, the people running the “most secure basebands/devices would be the ones I kept the closest eye on. I’ve heard my local intelligence service are very interested in phone switch on/off events, because they are a signal that someone might be attempting to evade surveillance, and the rarity of “normal people” switching their phone off (or disconnecting from the cellular network) makes it worthwhile collecting all that “metadata” so they can search it for the “interesting” cases.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by namibj on Sunday January 15, 2023 @09:46PM (#34396225)
There are open source LTE stacks, they just suffer from lack of power efficiency. Not too bad in a gaming laptop form factor, but quite bad in a smartphone.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by oneplane on Sunday January 15, 2023 @09:58PM (#34396302)
I don't think you can trust any commercial baseband, period. They all have to adhere to complex radio standards, nobody wants to implement them because their design-by-committee stuff is boring/lame/hard/painful, so what you get is a few stacks that pass the tests and everyone builds on top of that. Same goes for any other RTOS-style firmware, it's really hard to get right, and because most of them are built by/for the 'device' world, they often have very long release cycles, slow development etc. just like say, head units in cars or painfully slow touch screens on devices that should just have buttons (like office style coffee machines, ATMs etc).

WiFi is in a similar position, but at least the diversity is a bit better causing integration tests to fail better when too many bad implementations try to talk to each other.

That leaves all the other chips, which I think are best trusted in a divide and conquer setup where they all have to independently verify their blobs, and not be allowed to mess with each others memory/internal state. It can make them more expensive, but it also compartmentalises them in a way that side-channel attacks within CPU cores are completely mitigated.

Only a very very very small amount of companies in the world will have the capital, expertise and manpower to make devices where enough of the stack can be trusted, and out of all of those, only some actually seem to try:

  - Google (mostly for UX, but also to make fat stacks of cash via ads) 
  - Apple (mostly for UX, but also to make fat stacks of cash via ecosystem)
  - Microsoft (console, ARM windows, mostly for DRM, but also UX)
  - Sony (console, mostly for DRM, but also UX)
  - Nintendo (console, mostly for DRM)
Besides the vertical integration they could make, there is the problem of their 'personalities' usually not being a good fit for people that want to go off the deep end in terms of security, privacy, control, feelings etc. But anyone and everyone else simply cannot do to silicon what needs to be done, even if just because of the lack of IP.

The more a company does _not_ want to get burned on their security/privacy positions and keeps iterating making better designs, the more you _could_ trust them. The only realistic alternative is going back to 80's computing, and nobody has time for that.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lumb63 on Sunday January 15, 2023 @11:57PM (#34396981)
I agree with your point about how the personality of (technology) companies doesn’t fit the security minded person well. As a software engineer, I feel I am in the small minority whenever I mention security or privacy concerns at work. I feel that most technology is evil at this point because of the immense ability of it to violate people’s privacy. It is sad to me that this is the state of the modern tech ecosystem.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by speed_spread on Tuesday January 17, 2023 @08:06AM (#34411929)
It's just back to the worldview of the 1960's. The only computers were mainframes and were seen as the tools of "The Man", conspiring in the shadows against a free humanity. PCs were a liberating force, making computing accessible to the common man. Modern total reliance on global networks reversed the power balance back to central instances.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by bbarnett on Sunday January 15, 2023 @03:10PM (#34392805)
Why do companies tell users to “trust them” without any proof they are trustworthy?

You know the answer here, they are not to be trusted.

Samsung phones, for example, have a gpsd, which phones home at random times. This runs as root, ignores vpn settings (so no netguard for you!), and if it is just getting updated agps info, it sure seems to send a lot of data for that.

So no, they don't want a legitly auditable device. Too many questions, you see.

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lumb63 on Sunday January 15, 2023 @04:17PM (#34393514)
It is also worth mentioning, since I didn’t realize it until I worked in depth in the space: your CPU is not the only place to execute code, or the only place with access to hardware.
Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by bigiain on Sunday January 15, 2023 @05:20PM (#34394223)
While respecting your “I can go into details” comment, I’m curious to hear whatever you _can_ comment on about what sort of adversary has the capabilities you describe and do you have an opinion on whether they use those in tightly targeted attacks only, or do they compromise the entire hardware/software supply chain in a way that they can do “full take surveillance” using it?

If I’m not a terrorist/sex-trafficker/investigative-journalist, can I reasonably ignore those threats even if I, say, occasionally buy personal use quantities of illegal drugs or down/upload copyright material? (With, I guess, the caveat that I’d need to assume the dealer/torrent site at the other end of those connections isn’t under active surveillance…)

Re:Ask HN: How do you trust that your personal machine is no... by lumb63 on Sunday January 15, 2023 @09:57PM (#34396299)
All of this is public knowledge and has nothing to do with my role:

Nation states, especially the US, should be suspected of having compromised everything. Look at all the things Edward Snowden released. Look at the way the NSA has corrupted cryptographic standards in the past (e.g. Dual EC DRBG). There are countless instances of similar situations.