News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re: by mindcrime on Friday January 13, 2023 @12:13PM (#34370684)
Can't upvote this enough times. Time and time again you see this: people say "I hate agile because of X, Y and Z" where X, Y, and Z - at best - are orthogonal to the idea of Agile, and - at worst - are complete anathema to the spirit of Agile.

Sorry, but anybody who thinks Agile is about velocity, story points, planning poker, standups, retrospectives, backlog grooming, etc. has been sold a bill of goods. Now that's not to say that those things don't have (some) value. But they aren't "the thing" about Agile. Not even close.

Re: by peteradio on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:09PM (#34371539)
But if you are joining an Agile shop what do you get on average?
Re: by mpweiher on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:13PM (#34371613)
Fauxgile.
Re: by roundandround on Friday January 13, 2023 @01:33PM (#34371923)
And every time communism meets the real world we call the required modifications state capitalism.
Re: by lazyasciiart on Saturday January 14, 2023 @03:32AM (#34378440)
I thought it was called the welfare state, or social democracy.
Re: by ajmurmann on Friday January 13, 2023 @06:55PM (#34375578)
Scrum
Re: by fijiaarone on Friday January 13, 2023 @08:25PM (#34376266)
Jira
Re: by selestify on Friday January 13, 2023 @06:28PM (#34375335)
What is actually Agile then, and how does one actually practice it?
Re: by ajmurmann on Friday January 13, 2023 @07:02PM (#34375643)
agilemanifesto.org

Constant reflection and drive towards faster feedback. XP or if I squint Scrum can be a starting point, but you gotta adapt to the individuals on the team and the characteristics of the type of problem you are solving.

Re: by lr4444lr on Friday January 13, 2023 @07:03PM (#34375648)
It's a methodology that makes software more resilient to the changing needs of the business. Anything that violates the 12 canonical principles[0] should be thrown out - and this has to be determined by each org. individually.

[0] https://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html

Re: by mindcrime on Friday January 13, 2023 @07:30PM (#34375909)
/u/lr4444lr and /u/ajmurmann nailed it. "Agile" is just what the Agile Manifesto says. Strictly speaking, "Agile" in and of itself isn't even a methodology - it's just a set of principles, to which a number of concrete methodologies claim some association. They differ in the degree to which they faithfully represent the spirit of the manifesto.

So really, you're never "doing Agile". You're "doing $X" where $X can be Scrum, XP, Crystal, AgileUP, SAFe, or whatever. At most companies what you get, in my experience, is a bastardized version of Scrum cobbled together by somebody who has never actually developed software, took a couple of Scrum classes (maybe), paid too much money for some "help" from some "Agile coaches", and is hoping some of the resulting shit will stick to the wall.

FWIW, I've actually had the pleasure of working at company that did Scrum and really did it well, and it was honestly a great experience. Actual Scrum, as documented in the Scrum Guide, isn't bad. The problem is when people take base Scrum and start tacking on additional shit (see: "agile coaches" and "agile consultants") and wind up with a bureaucratic / kafka-esque tarpit of interminable meetings, ceremonies, and artifacts. In other words, pretty much exactly what the Agile Manifesto stood against in the first place.

Re: by RHSman2 on Saturday January 14, 2023 @04:20AM (#34378707)
Difference between doing Agile and being agile is the same as education. You can have engineers who are educated well and you can have engineers who get stuff done, well without a high level of ‘education’.
Re: by ttyprintk on Saturday January 14, 2023 @07:34AM (#34379801)
You’re talking about training, not education. A masters in engineering will be an experience in software architecture. An engineering role under one of these management styles will be an experience in training.
Re: by RHSman2 on Saturday January 14, 2023 @10:50AM (#34381182)
No I’m not. You are.
Re: by jimbomins on Monday January 16, 2023 @10:43AM (#34401708)
If you have an engineer the whole point of them being able to claim the title is they are educated and expert in their field. Without knowledge and expertise in a field you aren't going to get any engineering done.

Which is different to saying anyone trained to be an engineer will be able to get stuff done. But getting stuff done was always a recnognised requirement of an engineer; i.e. by definition they should be getting stuff done.

Re: by cwingrav on Friday January 13, 2023 @07:59PM (#34376091)
Agile is to Lenin as Agile processes are to Stalin.

Read the Agile Manifesto. That’s what Agile is. All else is either: - (good) trying to implement the Agile Manifesto, or - (bad) trying to make current process appear like Agile.

Re: by gonzo41 on Friday January 13, 2023 @09:00PM (#34376569)
You speak with a client. They say what they want. You build it they test it, and state objections and or request more features. You discuss and then build the agreed thing. And then you do this loop untill you ship
Re: by Too on Saturday January 14, 2023 @02:30AM (#34378106)
The whole idea is that there is no strictly formal version of the process. It can't be answered with a package. The process itself is agile, ammendable, fluid, mutable, improvable. You do what works for you.

Just stick to the principles of focusing on the product customer value over the processes themselves, with recurring reflection over how your process is working, as per the agile manifesto.

If your company hasn't done this before, Scrum is a good starting point, but it is by no means a goal nor the final destination. This is where most companies fail.

Re: by fabioborellini on Saturday January 14, 2023 @03:21AM (#34378375)
Some companies will just request a ready-made agile process from a certified agile overlord. The process will hinder productivity since only reporting parts and rituals are implemented, and all improvements suggested by individuals participating are dismissed since they are “against the agile process”.

I did leave and the company did crumble shortly afterwards. The main reason wasn’t related to processes, though. It was already too late when the faux-agile was introduced.

Re: by Viliam1234 on Saturday January 14, 2023 @03:08PM (#34383677)
You asked about Agile, but I will talk about Scrum instead, because I am more familiar with it.

https://scrumguides.org/scrum-guide.html

Ctrl+F "JIRA" - 0 results

Ctrl+F "velocity" - 0 results

Ctrl+F "on-call" - 0 results

Ctrl+F "manager" - 0 results

Selected quotes:

> Scrum Teams are cross-functional, meaning the members have all the skills necessary to create value each Sprint. They are also self-managing, meaning they internally decide who does what, when, and how.

> During the Sprint: No changes are made that would endanger the Sprint Goal;

> The Daily Scrum is a 15-minute event

A short version is that you have a small team of intelligent people who are given sufficient autonomy. They split time into intervals called "sprints", each sprint is 2-4 weeks long. (If you have no experience with Scrum, start with 2 weeks. When you get used to it, the team can decide the correct length.)

At the beginning of the sprint, the developers and the representative of the customer agree what gets done. During the sprint, the developers do it. Every day there is a short meeting in the morning, when developers say "I completed this; I am going to work on this; I am blocked by this", nothing more.

At the end of the sprint, developers show the implemented changes to the representative of the customer. Then the developers talk among themselves about what was good during this sprint, what was bad, and what they want to do differently the next time.

The important thing (ignored at almost all companies pretending to do Scrum) is that in this ideal world, managers do not exist. Developers manage themselves. In the daily meetings, developers report their progress to each other. What needs to be done, is decided by the representative of the customer (literally a person from a different company, or from a different department if this is an internal project). How it gets done, that is decided by the developers. When developers talk about what was good and bad, and what needs to be done differently, they actually have the power to do it differently the next time. Developers assign the work between themselves, and make estimates how long something would take.

Shortly: the developers are treated as adults, and their responsibility to the customer is defined on a biweekly or monthly basis.

Re: by lelanthran on Friday January 13, 2023 @11:27PM (#34377394)
> Sorry, but anybody who thinks Agile is about velocity, story points, planning poker, standups, retrospectives, backlog grooming, etc. has been sold a bill of goods. Now that's not to say that those things don't have (some) value.

Spot on. You and parent have hit the two points that matter:

1. Agile is about removing impediments to productivity

2. velocity, story points, planning poker, standups, retrospectives, backlog grooming, etc are all, in some way, impediments to productivity (even if they do have some value).

I think the real reason you cannot have real agile is because businesses don't run in a way that is compatible with agile, so over time all processes within a business will evolve to match how the business itself functions.

Re: by garethrowlands on Saturday January 14, 2023 @09:48AM (#34380694)
Strong agree.

Except it's not even really about productivity, it's about outcomes. The productivity is only important insofar as it achieves the outcomes. The ideal agile process would have the team on the golf course or in the spa but still changing the world (any suggestions on achieving this, gratefully accepted, as always).

Re: by mindcrime on Saturday January 14, 2023 @10:36AM (#34381073)
I think the real reason you cannot have real agile is because businesses don't run in a way that is compatible with agile, so over time all processes within a business will evolve to match how the business itself functions.

Sadly, I think you are correct. It's very hard, at best, to make "the business" operate in a way that's truly compatible with the agile approach on the tech side. :-(

I won't say it's impossible, but it's definitely not easy.

Re: by t43562 on Saturday January 14, 2023 @12:33PM (#34382033)
Yes, the business leadership almost always put an impossible waterfall approach ontop - they don't adapt to change at all well and are not really leading.

For me the value in Agile is what we end up NOT doing - we never get to that shit because in the end it's not that important. So we never waste time doing it.

Re: by jimbomins on Monday January 16, 2023 @10:37AM (#34401653)
"removing impediments" - just sounds like good managers in any process. Bad managers often are an impediment.