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Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by wwweston on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @02:21PM (#34330086)
For better and worse, this is pretty much what I'd expect. It's not a serious attempt to genuinely govern or otherwise make reasonable policy, it's sending up an ideological flag, and since the fundamental ideology is actually opposed to the idea of well-functioning social institutions with mutual accountability...
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by wustangdan on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @02:30PM (#34330218)
I'm sorry I'm not following you. Are you saying that what the US has now is well-functioning social institutions with mutual accountability?

Since they oppose this by trying to pull funding from them.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by mrguyorama on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @02:44PM (#34330419)
Republicans have run on a platform of "Government is terrible at it's job" for 50 years, and every time they get elected they work really hard to prove it.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by wustangdan on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @02:55PM (#34330572)
I have a hard time combining this sentiment with my lived experience in California.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by wwweston on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @03:15PM (#34330839)
If California were particularly terrible, it wouldn't be so damn popular, and most of its problems would go away. California does have some specific policy problems, but most of what it has are popular place problems.

It also doesn't pass muster with my own lived experience. I've loved all of the 15 years I've spent in both Northern and Southern metro California, and I'd do it again.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by WkndTriathlete on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @03:32PM (#34331056)
California is popular because of its _climate_ and despite all of the batshit insane policies that have been legislated.

I'm gradually approaching retirement age and looking for a place with better climate to retire to, but everywhere I've visited - including California - has a lot of negatives that outweigh the positives of where I currently live, which (by a lot of metrics) has some of the worst climate in the nation. Despite all of that, I might still put up with additional crap elsewhere to live in a more moderate climate. Don't underestimate climate as a powerful decider for where people live.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by wwweston on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @04:05PM (#34331474)
Climate is indeed one of the reasons it's popular. That's not even remotely a counterargument against the premise that most of the state's problems are primarily from popularity rather than policy.

And "batshit policy" shouldn't be taken seriously as a charge without serious specific policy criticisms.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by bb88 on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @03:28PM (#34331008)
Thousands of Californians left this last year or two and moved to Idaho. This sparked a housing crisis here in Boise, Idaho. I would assume these are left and right of center folks looking for cheaper housing and a better life.

At one point last year the median household income was $75k/year. The median house price was $525k or so. Basically this created the situation if you couldn't afford a house before the housing crisis, the $1500 to $2000 rent payments were going to eat into your income and make it harder to buy a house.

The NIMBY politics surrounding housing has got to go in California. We're beginning to get that here.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by wwweston on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @03:55PM (#34331330)
> This sparked a housing crisis here in Boise, Idaho.

How interesting. Presumably as enlightened examples of the opposite of California governance, they wouldn't have any such thing as a housing crisis caused by popularity.

Or... it could be they've had the luxury of not having popular-place problems thus far, and like everyone else are suddenly discovering that actual governance is hard.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by bb88 on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @06:38PM (#34333043)
They came here to escape California governance, I guess, but in the end just made life worse for everyone else living here.

My property taxes have more than doubled over the last decade.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by mixmastamyk on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @09:56PM (#34334521)
NIMBYs are everywhere while the population is always growing. Did you think you would escape it, or just want to blame city slickers who like a roof over their head?
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by bb88 on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @01:20AM (#34335637)
If you're defending NIMBYism with this post, it fails on many fronts.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by mixmastamyk on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @12:10PM (#34340992)
Please read again.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by gremlinsinc on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @04:07PM (#34331504)
People complain of Californians moving here as well, driving up costs but nobody looks at the 385 vacant AirBNB's in a town of 45k (Cedar City, UT). If you had 385 homes open up for student or family housing the rental crisis would plummet and prices would drop to normal. If they go un-filled that means they need homeowners instead of renters and will be back on the market at lesser prices because demand will drop if airbnb is limited. There should be like a set quota of airbnb's per capita (1 per 1k maybe?, and a yearly license by random lottery to see who gets a license).
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by taylodl on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @05:02PM (#34332197)
So you're saying the government should regulate how you use your private property? That's an interesting idea coming from a so-called "red" state.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by bb88 on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @06:35PM (#34333017)
If you're not living in it and using it for vacation homes, it seems eminent domain makes sense.

Now this is "homes" I'm talking about, not other dense living situations like apartment buildings and hotels.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by ashwagary on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @09:44PM (#34334448)
Hotels should be zoned for commercial activity. He's right about the AirBNB business model increasing homelessness.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by taylodl on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @01:35PM (#34342462)
What has increased homelessness is communities restricting new building. The homeless have no means for buying the typical AirBNB property.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by wwweston on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @01:58PM (#34342823)
Not adding supply and taking existing supply off the market both contribute to supply issues.

And I'm not sure that AirBnB avoids any particular segment of the market; it can as easily cannibalize 1bd condos as it can 4bd homes.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by ashwagary on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @06:57PM (#34346915)
>The homeless have no means for buying the typical AirBNB property.

This is partially due to people buying up available housing stock to AirBNB resulting in a skewing of prices.

Many houses that would be back on the market now sit empty with no tenants for significant portions of every month thanks to that business model.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by threatofrain on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @06:09PM (#34332785)
At what point is it reasonable for the major Californian cities to stop growing? Aren't there states where the entire state population could fit inside a single Californian city? Aren't there cities whose population could amount to several US states? People are complaining about California's governance, taxes, and pricing, so what's wrong with encouraging movement to other states?

A popular HN perspective would describe SF's problem as NIMBY and that we should allow developers to build without regulations like mandatory parking, but the transportation situation in SF is really bad. I feel that a city cannot just scale linearly once you pass a certain population / density threshold.

When I go to SF I expect to burn 20 minutes solely on parking or to pay very expensive parking fees for private lots. If you use any major highways in California during rush hour then expect a 30-45 min tax on your time. If people want SF to pass 1M then there needs to be a deliberate public works project to revamp the infrastructure in a massive way.

Also, do people think that building more lots would make things cheaper? London's population is ~9M, NYC is ~8.4M, Tokyo is ~14M. If London gets to 10M, is housing going to be finally affordable to UK citizens? When will Tokyo be affordable? SF is approximately 3-4x the population density of London and 3x of Tokyo. The vibe I get when driving around SF residentials is one of claustrophobic density, like the city can't afford any interstitial gaps between lots for things like trees.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by bb88 on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @06:33PM (#34332987)
> People are complaining about California's governance, taxes, and pricing, so what's wrong with encouraging movement to other states?

In short, public golf courses -- moreover -- the protection of public golf courses. That's pure NIMBYism right there. California chose golf courses over housing. Think about that.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by pandaman on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @06:43PM (#34333085)
How do you gauge popularity of a state? I am guessing not by the net domestic migration [1], which would seem to be a natural choice in this case.

1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @02:59PM (#34330635)
Regardless, what's the alternative? Have corporations run everything and only majority share holders get any say? How do you think that'll work out?

Yet, that's exactly what the "government doesn't work" crowd seems to be pushing for. It's great if you're a billionaire neo-feudalist and terrible if you're literally anyone else.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by wustangdan on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @03:09PM (#34330772)
I'm not following you. Are you saying we implement this alternative by removing income tax and replacing it with consumption tax, that corporations will run everything and only share holders get a say?

I'm not sure what this tax issue has to do with the right to vote?

Don't follow the fact that only billionaire feudalists are allowed to think their government isn't working well? Why can't ordinary citizens be unhappy?

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @03:25PM (#34330970)
No, I'm not talking about the IRS specifically, just the general "government doesn't work" sentiment.

> Don't follow the fact that only billionaire feudalists are allowed to think their government isn't working well? Why can't ordinary citizens be unhappy?

You can think a government isn't working well, but the solution is not "dismantle the government" (which would lead to corporate rule and kind of already has), its "elect a better government".

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by kodyo on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @04:09PM (#34331540)
You can't vote your way out of an oligarchy. You can destroy and replace it, or you can secede from it.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by kodyo on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @03:07PM (#34330747)
I can imagine alternatives that aren't one of a) unlimited fascist oligarchy (present) and b) unlimited corporate oligarchy (your proposed alternative).
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by dragonwriter on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @06:43PM (#34333088)
> > Republicans have run on a platform of "Government is terrible at it's job" for 50 years, and every time they get elected they work really hard to prove it.

> I have a hard time combining this sentiment with my lived experience in California.

I have no problem at all reconciling it with my 45 years of lived experience in California. About the only good thing California Republicans did for government in that time is provide such a flagrant display of how a minority dedicated to scoring political points with no concern for the general warfare could abuse supermajority requirements as to motivate California voters to change the Constitution to make the state somewhat practically governable despite the existence of the California Republican Party by removing the legislative supermajority requirement for the annual budget.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by wwweston on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:21PM (#34334662)
Amen. And don't forget that some of the formative policies people are critical of now (cough Prop 13) actually stem from periods where conservatives had the pull to win elections and ballot initiatives in California.

And California's progressive lock arguably isn't even really old enough to drive.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by wwweston on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @02:46PM (#34330442)
The US is astoundingly well-functioning and most US citizens astoundingly lucky by historical and/or global standards, and certain kinds of minimally functional mutual accountability are part of the reason why we've gotten this far.

There's also plenty of room for improvement of course (including learning from other industrial social democracies as well as recent internal issues), so that's relative, but the most reasonable perspective to start from is that we're all ridiculously lucky. Without substantial appreciation for that fact we're quite likely to wreck institutions that have gotten us here.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by trilbyglens on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @03:05PM (#34330715)
Astoundingly well functioning maybe if you ignore literally every single other developed nation on the planet.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by wwweston on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @03:08PM (#34330754)
See the parenthetical in the 2nd paragraph of the comment you're replying to.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by keewee7 on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @10:46PM (#34334792)
You're probably correct if you don't consider Southern Europe and Eastern Germany to be developed.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by kodyo on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @03:32PM (#34331053)
The US government is the bloodiest, most indebted, and most imprisoning institution on the planet.

And I agree, it is astoundingly well-functioning at it.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by prottog on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @02:57PM (#34330591)
> since the fundamental ideology is actually opposed to the idea of well-functioning social institutions with mutual accountability

A charitable interpretation of Republican "fundamental ideology", as it were, would be that they prefer more well-functioning social institutions at lower levels of government, closer to the people those institutions are meant to serve. It would make sense than beyond just a publicity stunt to lower federal taxes and have states and localities tax more.

I can't take you seriously if you're claiming that one of the two major parties in this country isn't interested in the well-being of the country.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by wwweston on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @03:27PM (#34330989)
There was a point where I would have held the charitable reading of Republican ideology and I still know some people who identify with the party who probably understand their own position this way.

But at this point, no, I don't believe that's actually what's animating it. Selective election denialism is as nihilistic about local institutions as it is about national ones, while theories about state legislatures overridding citizen ballots sure isn't moving things closer to the people.

Whether you can take me seriously isn't any particular concern of mine, whether you can take the actual underlying topics seriously is the primary matter of concern.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by bb88 on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @03:41PM (#34331179)
Republicans have mostly lost their ideological way it seems like. They seem to just be against anything the Democrats are for these days.

The J6 response from the Republicans is all you need to know about power and politics in the party these days. Law and Order is fine long as it's only applied Biden's son. Nevermind the attack on institutional democracy.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by slowmovintarget on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @04:00PM (#34331400)
> They seem to just be against anything the Democrats are for these days.

This.

This was the problem with Democrats for a long time. They weren't for anything, they were just against Republicans. Republicans in government used to be well-educated and their main ideological thrust was based on a set of principles of limited government, free-market capitalism, and maximum agency of the governed. They fell short of this ideal, but the ideal was there.

Not any more. They're doing stupid symbolic things like this resolution to "get them Democrats" not to actually fix anything, and not as a matter of principle. Part of the problem is any conservative leaning person of any intelligence or reasonable level of education doesn't go into government, they go into business. We end up stuck with bozos like we have now.

This move to abolish the IRS is as much theater as the move to "abolish" daylight savings time in the U.S. which never goes beyond submission of a bill.

If they'd backed this with something like a flat tax, that would have been a bold move, even semi-realistic. But this is circus fare.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by jrs235 on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @04:54PM (#34332110)
They would have and could have done it when they controlled the House, Senate, and Whitehouse 4 years ago. But they aren't seriously about getting things done, just optics.

Edit: When they controlled all three during the beginning of the previous President's time in office. Still waiting for infrastructure [week] to end and I'm still waiting to see what the Republicans ACA replacement will be... SMH

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by ashwagary on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @09:47PM (#34334466)
This political posturing will probably ensure an increase in support come election time.

People are getting savaged by inflation while the Democrats want the IRS to hire more agents that have a habit of targeting the middle income and poor because they are low hanging fruit.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by esarbe on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @08:04AM (#34337924)
Please stop spreading such nonsense. They don't have "a habit of targeting the middle income" people because they are low hanging fruits. They currently target middle income people because the lack the funds to go after the affluent and the wealthy and the obscenely rich.

That's what the additional funds is trying to rectify.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-20/super-ric...

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by ashwagary on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @06:50PM (#34346842)
>They don't have "a habit of targeting the middle income" people because they are low hanging fruits.

>They currently target middle income people because the lack the funds to go after the affluent and the wealthy and the obscenely rich.

Low-hanging fruit: The obvious or easy things that can be most readily done or dealt with in achieving success or making progress toward an objective.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/low-hanging%20fru...

It's not nonsense, it's the reality.

Additionally, do you really believe US corruption is minor enough that politicians will target the major donor class for tax violations en mass?

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by esarbe on Sunday January 15, 2023 @08:57AM (#34389402)
"low-hanging fruits" is implying that other fruits would be available for harvest - which they are not - the IRS lacks the funds to go after these other "fruits". So I'm not sure this metaphor is applicable.

> do you really believe US corruption is minor enough that politicians will target the major donor class for tax violations en mass?

Not giving the enforcement agencies the means to do the enforcement is not going to help either. If you are worried about corruption in the US, support efforts that get money out of politics, reversing Citizens United, etc. Not by virtually absolving rich people from paying taxes "because they already bought the politicians".

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by jfengel on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @03:50PM (#34331267)
A charitable interpretation of Republican "fundamental ideology", as it were, would be that they prefer more well-functioning social institutions at lower levels of government, closer to the people those institutions are meant to serve.

But that's not what this does. This doesn't do anything to transition power away from the federal government. It just makes it impossible for the federal government to do its job.

That doesn't prove that they're not interested in the well-being of the country, but only because they know this won't succeed. If they thought it could pass, it would be wildly irresponsible. Instead, all we know is that at this moment they've chosen to make a grand and pointless gesture instead of actually governing.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by prottog on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @04:28PM (#34331767)
> instead of actually governing

And what do you suppose should be the priorities for the federal government? What needs actually governing that can't be better done at state and local levels at the moment?

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by jfengel on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @05:42PM (#34332567)
Whether it could, in theory, be done better locally, then at the very least you'd need to plan for that. You can't just turn off the Social Security Administration, the Department of Transportation, the Department of Homeland Security etc and assume that the states will pick up those jobs tomorrow.

We could have a decent argument about which jobs are better handled by a federal government and which aren't. The notion that the federal government isn't actually doing anything and could just vanish tomorrow is absurd and not worth discussing.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by prottog on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @09:51AM (#34339037)
How about the notion that the federal government is doing way more than it should given its remit under the Constitution? That's my point, not that it can and should cease to exist.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by jfengel on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @10:28AM (#34339480)
I don't actually believe that, because the Constitution is deliberately vague about what the government can and can't do. It exists in its current form as the result of 250 years of evolution, following the rules at each step as best it could.

Even so, I'd be willing to say, "Sure, fine, the government is doing more than it should". That's pretty vacuously true, and also irrelevant. Getting people to agree on which parts are important, and finding a better way to implement them, seems a more germane question.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by kodyo on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @04:10PM (#34331548)
> It just makes it impossible for the federal government to do its job.

Where do I sign up?

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by timeon on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @04:16PM (#34331618)
If you guys are going to loose your federation then you are going to be less relevant in world stage.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by kodyo on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @04:41PM (#34331933)
Most of the people I know and care about are within 10 miles of my house. I don't care about my town's relevance on the "world stage," whatever the heck that means to you.
Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by jfengel on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @05:43PM (#34332581)
Here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia

I'd refer you to their web site, but they don't appear to have one.

Re:House Republicans to vote on bill abolishing IRS, elimina... by kodyo on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @06:02PM (#34332732)
The two choices according to midwits:

1) An unlimited fascist oligarchy to sustain the global American empire

or

2) Somalia