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Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by wiz21c on Monday January 09, 2023 @02:30AM (#34307773)
One question is missing : "what if we had to pay for our environmental footprint" ?

Since so few ask it in a meaningful way, I dare to say it is still, unfortunately, a pretty extreme questions for those it should be asked to.

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by throwaway82388 on Monday January 09, 2023 @02:43AM (#34307836)
Plenty of think tanks and NGOs are on it. Google “personal carbon quota”
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by dopidopHN on Monday January 09, 2023 @03:36AM (#34308107)
* * *
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by Juliate on Monday January 09, 2023 @03:59AM (#34308247)
A quota is more « that’s all you will ever get to use, nothing more »
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by ThrowAgain on Monday January 09, 2023 @04:00AM (#34308252)
Is it? EU talks a lot about national carbon footprint, and GCP launched carbon calculator https://cloud.google.com/carbon-footprint. Sure, noone asks this in explicit way but given current trends it feels like we are going in this direction very fast.
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by pelasaco on Monday January 09, 2023 @06:28AM (#34309191)
well, EU talks a lot about national carbon footprint and normally the solution is to send the carbon footprint overseas, then the national problem is solved.
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by cube2222 on Monday January 09, 2023 @07:14AM (#34309470)
This is actually being changed and was discussed here on HN[0].

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33833017

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by CrazyStat on Monday January 09, 2023 @07:40AM (#34309673)
Have they fixed the wood burning loophole, where you can burn overseas wood without recognizing any carbon emissions because the carbon accounting places the emissions at the place where the wood was harvested?

>In 1996, scientists at the United Nations devised a method to measure global carbon emissions. To simplify the process and avoid double counting, they suggested emissions from burning biomass should be calculated where the trees are cut down, not where the wood pellets are burned.

>The EU adopted this methodology in its Renewable Energy Directive, allowing energy companies to burn biomass produced in the US without having to report the emissions.

>The accounting method– which was never intended to assign national responsibility for carbon emissions, according to climate experts has created a lot of discussion and disagreement among advocates, scientists and policymakers. But ultimately it is not the accounting of carbon that is the problem, it's the emissions.

>"It doesn't change the physical reality." said Tim Searchinger, senior research scholar at Princeton University. "A law designed to reduce emissions that in reality encourages an increase in emissions... has to be flawed," he said, referring to Europe's directive.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2021/07/us/american-south-bi...

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by illys on Monday January 09, 2023 @09:40AM (#34310797)
I don't think wood-burning is a real emission issue since wood growing/burning is a carbon-cycle and not a fossil taken in the ground and injected forever in the atmosphere...

As long as the wood is coming from tree plantations, not from deforestation of course, which I expect to be mostly the case in North America and Europe.

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by CrazyStat on Monday January 09, 2023 @12:01PM (#34312581)
Even if the forest is replanted and eventually stores the same amount of carbon as was released in burning the wood you end up behind. You release a bunch of carbon today and it takes decades for the new growth to recapture that. Plus you burn additional fuel for the harvest, processing, and shipping, which is never recaptured.

Burning and replanting forests is not carbon neutral. Not even close. It's an accounting gimmick that the EU uses to make themselves look good.

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by pelasaco on Monday January 09, 2023 @09:13AM (#34310508)
I would be careful with "actually being changed". They pushed it to start on 2024, so there is nothing being changed. They still can rollback it because of the war, because of the economy, because we have to protect our kids, because Hungary doesn't like it, you name it.

In another hand, it's a market, as stated in their website, "It is the world's first major carbon market and remains the biggest one."[0], so for sure it will be a huge source of income and therefore the countries will have much more incentive to do it. I saw already the same in another countries and the results weren't so spectacular, but instead the whole supply chain just got more expensive, which meant the prices raised to the customers.

[0]: https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/eu-emissions-trading-...

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by cube2222 on Monday January 09, 2023 @09:24AM (#34310629)
Raised prices are an expected result of these changes. You're paying for the emissions and it becomes part of the cost of production, so in effect raises the price.

That's a good thing and helps "green" products compete.

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by pelasaco on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @11:34AM (#34327424)
The example why "nothing is being changed" just because EU signed a compromise to do it in 2024. https://www.euronews.com/2023/01/10/belgium-extends-life-of-.... Belgium extends life of its nuclear power industry by 10 years regardless of previous European agreements.
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by Arkhaine_kupo on Monday January 09, 2023 @04:48AM (#34308572)
Going one step further. "How do we meaningfully calculate the total life cost of products? "

Externalities, clean up costs etc are currently not being charged which makes some products economically viable when they probably shouldn't be.

For example in China Coal plants keep getting opened, because despite a cheaper lifetime cost for solar, coal has a much lower upfront cost and without meaningful costs for environmental damage well you can always sell the fully profitable plant before the late life costs come and bite you. (There is more to it, but thats the simplified version of it).

Same with single use plastics. They are really cheap to make, but what about cleaning them up, recycling them etc. Without counting that cost, yeah manufacturing plastic is extremely cheap compared to like a well made pottery plate. But in 50 years the clay plate is still around and the plastic one is just microplastics in the ocean forever.

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by worldsayshi on Monday January 09, 2023 @08:48AM (#34310258)
I don't doubt the part about environment costs but:

>you can always sell the fully profitable plant before the late life costs come and bite you

Why wouldn't this be accounted for in the selling price (unless you scam the buyer)?

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by Arkhaine_kupo on Monday January 09, 2023 @09:09AM (#34310478)
You can always sell it at the current price, but with further environmental commitments by country the price of operating or closing a plant will probably only go up.

But due to the hypothetical nature of those new environmental regulations they are probably not considered during the buyout process.

But the current trend would point towards their cost only going up, and no regulation making fossil fuel plants any cheaper to run or decomission.

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by runnerup on Monday January 09, 2023 @11:36PM (#34320555)
The highest bidder will generally always be making the most favorable assumptions of the future, some of which will turn out to be wrong.
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by nathias on Monday January 09, 2023 @05:35AM (#34308859)
enviromental effects are just one aspect of externalities, if you had to pay all of them, I wonder how many businesses would be left
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by diordiderot on Monday January 09, 2023 @09:48AM (#34310899)
The ones that deserve to be?
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by latexr on Monday January 09, 2023 @09:57AM (#34311003)
Your comment made me think of a New Yorker cartoon¹:

> “Yes, the planet got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders.”

¹ https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a16995

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by themitigating on Monday January 09, 2023 @06:22AM (#34309163)
I would ask

"When is it justified to put the environment over human life?"

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by pelasaco on Monday January 09, 2023 @06:33AM (#34309215)
But it brings another questions with it: Do we need to provide Welfare to everyone at any cost?
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by themitigating on Monday January 09, 2023 @07:26PM (#34318568)
Yes, why not?
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by pelasaco on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @05:01AM (#34322590)
I'm surprising you asking it here if in another comment you wrote "Humans don't have to live"[0].

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34316128

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by pjc50 on Monday January 09, 2023 @07:41AM (#34309676)
Can you really separate those, given that humans have to live in the environment?
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by gernb on Monday January 09, 2023 @12:55PM (#34313404)
yes you can. Because it will likely be decades before the environment kills people but you can save a life today. Oh, don't drive that ambulance to go pick someone up and rescue them, it pollutes! Where as other solutions may exist for the environment in the future.

Here's another. Maybe no one should go hiking/camping/mountain climbing because the few that need to be rescued generally require cars/helicopters the burn fossil fuels to come to their aid, not to mention all the fossil fuels used to get them to their camp/hike/climb site and all the materials for their gear, all for "entertainment".

Also, you yourself are likely a net negative on the environment. Do you have an obligation to kill yourself?

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by dublinben on Monday January 09, 2023 @04:11PM (#34316121)
Many people are killed by "the environment" every year already. This problem will only continue to get worse unless we make radical changes today.

Over 20,000 died in western Europe’s summer heatwaves [0]

Bangladesh, India floods kill over 100; millions in need of aid [1]

Climate Change Causes 5 Million Extra Deaths Per Year [2]

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/24/over-200...

[1] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/21/bangladesh-india-fl...

[2] https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20210708/climate-ch...

Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by gernb on Tuesday January 10, 2023 @01:36PM (#34329343)
Poverty also causes millions of deaths a year.
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by themitigating on Monday January 09, 2023 @04:11PM (#34316128)
Humans don't have to live
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by latexr on Monday January 09, 2023 @07:45AM (#34309708)
That’s a false dichotomy. You can’t separate human life from the environment; hurt the latter and you hurt the former.
Re:Extreme questions to trigger new, better ideas by pnf on Monday January 09, 2023 @09:35AM (#34310749)
A business asking this question without a corollary question about how to recoup the cost somehow (e.g., through market access, product positioning, brand value, or subsidies) is shooting themselves in the foot. Additional questions:

Who is computing our environmental footprint? Are our interests aligned? Do our competitors also have to pay it? Is it computed the same for them? What is the penalty if we refuse to pay? Do loopholes exist and will they be exploited by our competition? Do tax programs already exist at a national level that go towards paying this footprint? Does such a cost necessitate operating above certain economies of scale to be in business at all? If we do business internationally, will we pay different costs in different jurisdictions? Is our footprint a net-bad thing or is our product a net-good whose footprint should be subsidized but isn't?

The question is likely one that many business will have to answer (whether they ask it or not) given the regulatory and financial controls being implemented by supranational governance.