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Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by eitau_1 on Friday January 06, 2023 @05:19PM (#34282100)
Housing costs, which are proportional to average population income, force us to compete in a Red Queen's race - everyone's earnings have to catch up with others'.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by lotsofpulp on Friday January 06, 2023 @05:33PM (#34282263)
Then why are there rich and poor sides of a town? In many cases, people earning high incomes spend extra time to drive past lower priced housing to get to their higher priced housing.

No one forced them to pay more than the minimum for housing.

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by kiba on Friday January 06, 2023 @05:51PM (#34282503)
No one forced them to pay more than the minimum for housing.

Not all land in a given area are equal in their attribute and there's fundamental scarcity in desirable lands. The richest presumably purchases houses in locations that has the most amenities, while everybody scrambles for the rest.

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by lotsofpulp on Friday January 06, 2023 @06:28PM (#34282871)
Hence it is not housing costs “forcing” people to compete, it is people’s desire to have more than others.

Which is not necessarily a bad thing, it is very well possible the lower priced housing has unacceptable attributes, but that leads to different causal factors.

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by kiba on Friday January 06, 2023 @07:00PM (#34283204)
Where you live also determine access to jobs, educations, and other opportunities. Cities are more valuable for this reason.

It is also determined by housing supply in a given location and transportation policies, how we decided that homes are investments which increases exclusionary NIMBY behaviors.

It is not merely 'desire to have more' than the other that determine the cost of living.

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by dropit_sphere on Friday January 06, 2023 @07:23PM (#34283429)
lower-priced housing often has unacceptable attributes simply by virtue being lower-priced, as crime rates and schools are worse.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by marmadukester39 on Friday January 06, 2023 @07:05PM (#34283249)
Its because of the schools. Since we in the US tied school funding to property taxes, getting your kid a good education if you arent truly wealthy enough to pay for private schools (now 30kish per kid per year) means living near other better off people , or sacrificing your kids future and perhaps their safey.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by ghaff on Friday January 06, 2023 @07:22PM (#34283417)
The relationship between school funding and outcomes is far from clear in general.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by candiddevmike on Friday January 06, 2023 @05:33PM (#34282258)
I blame bullshit jobs and management. I can be productive with less than 40 hours, I can't be a manager/PM/VP's butler if I'm away from my computer.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by 082349872349872 on Friday January 06, 2023 @05:28PM (#34282189)
There are other, more hedonic treadmills as well. Aluminium used to be expensive enough to make fancy tableware from, but now that it is dirt cheap, people want to buy iPhones instead.

I hope there are some among us who (cf Carnegie) might view building the equivalent of libraries as a positional good?

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by jrpt on Friday January 06, 2023 @05:33PM (#34282274)
An iPhone every few years is a very insignificant cost compared to a house.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by Gigachad on Friday January 06, 2023 @06:36PM (#34282948)
Cars are a significant one. Most people spend way more than they have to on cars for luxury features they don’t need for transport.

Personally I opted for no car even though I can easily afford it. It’s a huge amount saved and honestly the lifestyle of walking to places is nicer anyway.

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by ghaff on Friday January 06, 2023 @07:21PM (#34283404)
Living somewhere I didn't need a car would be way more expensive for me than owning a car--even if I didn't care about the lack of mobility.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by Gigachad on Friday January 06, 2023 @09:32PM (#34284482)
That wasn't how it worked out for me. The average cost of a car in Australia a few years ago was $10,000/year factoring in everything with the car value depreciation. This is much worse now with the increase in fuel and car values.

Your increase in rent would have to be over $200AUD/week to be more expensive than owning a car. Not to mention the fact you benefit from living in a much more desirable area and everything else that comes with.

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by ghaff on Friday January 06, 2023 @09:58PM (#34284662)
It depends.

I live in an exurb of a major US metro on the East Coast. It's hard to compare costs directly as I own a house but anything remotely equivalent in the city on public transit lines would be much pricier. As for desirable? Well I have forest trails right out of my house. Don't care that much about walking to cafes and restaurants.

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by lossolo on Friday January 06, 2023 @06:53PM (#34283141)
It's about keeping up with joneses more than an specific item like iPhone, which is just an example of this phenomenon.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by brailsafe on Friday January 06, 2023 @05:30PM (#34282206)
What decade do you live in where housing costs are proportional to the average population's income? Asking for a friend.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by HPsquared on Friday January 06, 2023 @05:54PM (#34282536)
Monthly rents and mortgage payments are proportional to disposable incomes, pretty much by definition. People competitively bid up the prices in terms of what they can each afford.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by brailsafe on Friday January 06, 2023 @06:31PM (#34282902)
I think it's more closely related to scarcity and how much someone's mortgage can be subsidized by monthly rents, and a lack of choice for renters to have other options. I don't think a lot of mortgage holders would be able to realistically pay their mortages if they weren't renting their basement out, and I know a lot of people who have houses now wouldn't be able to buy them because their salaries are wildly inadequate for servicing what they'd list for. But generally you're right if that dynamic weren't so insane.

A 1 bdr condo in my city would cost an overall ~$4000 for a really old condo in a shitty building, and there's <9% of people on record in the country who'd be able to afford that without a ton of pressure, and the only people I know that own anything more than that absolutely couldn't pay for it without renting our all of their rooms.

I guess it's still proportional in the sense that eventually renters will literally just have no money left

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by srveale on Friday January 06, 2023 @06:32PM (#34282904)
House price to income ratio is increasing, meaning price is not proportional to income, pretty much by definition.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by HPsquared on Friday January 06, 2023 @07:19PM (#34283390)
It depends on the definition of "housing costs". Monthly payments determine whether something is possible on a given income. Total cost is more a question of whether it's a good deal or not.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by yamazakiwi on Friday January 06, 2023 @06:35PM (#34282932)
Defining increasing housing cost by increases to disposable income is an inaccurate representation.

You are right that prices are raised by what people can afford but we need to be specific and say, which people?

It falls somewhere between the disposable income of the Top 1%, and the average disposable income of the general population, and has historically moved towards that Top 1%.

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by HPsquared on Friday January 06, 2023 @07:21PM (#34283405)
I suppose I'm implicitly filtering out all the people who don't participate in the market.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by akgerber on Friday January 06, 2023 @05:44PM (#34282394)
Housing costs are a basket of the cost of the housing unit itself and land costs. Regulation limiting how densely housing may be built atop land, when this limit is lower than the number of housing units demanded, is what causes the Red Queen's race dynamic.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by kace91 on Friday January 06, 2023 @05:49PM (#34282467)
Land is still limited (given an interest in low distance to a hub) and density is physically limited as well, regardless of regulation.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by HPsquared on Friday January 06, 2023 @05:52PM (#34282513)
Hubs can be built, though.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by ZainRiz on Friday January 06, 2023 @05:55PM (#34282561)
Housing can be very cheap if you're willing to live in a small town. It feels expensive only when people want to cluster around the same, limited number of areas.

If you're not tied by an employer, then you can be way more flexible about how you spend your housing budget

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by dragonwriter on Friday January 06, 2023 @06:01PM (#34282620)
> It feels expensive only when people want to cluster around the same, limited number of areas.

Yes, it is cheaper to live where fewer people want to live.

But, usually, there are reasons fewer people want to live there.

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by yamazakiwi on Friday January 06, 2023 @06:17PM (#34282770)
Most adults are tied to an employer unfortunately
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by Gigachad on Friday January 06, 2023 @06:39PM (#34282975)
I work remote and chose to buy an apartment in a highrise. There is so much more to life than just working. Being close to everything improves so much.

It’s hard to explain how good life is when you live within walking distance of friends and can spontaneously decide to go to the cafe for breakfast rather than having to schedule an event days in advance so people can transport in.

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by twelve40 on Friday January 06, 2023 @07:42PM (#34283581)
I've been thinking about this recently. I have friends who happily move out to pretty remote places, like the Pocono mountains or remote parts of Koh Phangan, etc, none of which is walkable and typically requires a 1+hr trip on a car or a scooter. Yet, they seem to have no problem socializing and having over tons of friends and partners. I guess it depends on charisma or something? If your friends or tinder dates think it's totally worth heading out to boondocks every time. I'm more with you, really want to be in the middle of things and everything walkable, but I have seen very sociable people thrive without that.
Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by Gigachad on Friday January 06, 2023 @09:36PM (#34284504)
I'm 24, in Australia, and none of my friends own cars. When I was in the suburbs, no one would ever visit me unless I wanted to pick them up. We would have to arrange some other meeting place in the city which was expensive and not as comfortable as a dinner party.

Moved to the city and some of my friends live here while the others have very easy public transport to the city from their houses so now I meet up with friends several times a week. Often they don't have to travel at all and just walk from the office to my place after work.

For me it's been life changing.

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by bradlys on Saturday January 07, 2023 @09:23AM (#34288191)
It also depends on the types of friends you want and seek.

Some of the types of people we desire to be around aren’t going to be in those areas. If you’re into tech but live around a bunch of troglodytes - you’re not likely to make many friends around tech subjects. If that’s your passion and you want friends who share that passion - gotta move.

Some people have incredibly low standards (anyone will do) for friends and lovers. Some have high standards (very few will fit). If you live in niche small towns/villages with little in common - it’s gonna be rough to be someone with high standards.

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by mikebenfield on Friday January 06, 2023 @06:26PM (#34282857)
There are two big factors that make housing in a given area expensive.

Yes, one is that a lot of people want to live there. That one's inevitable though. Some places are more desirable to live than others. I don't want to live in a small town with nothing to do.

The other factor is when a city refuses to build sufficient housing. This one is not inevitable. It usually comes about due to entrenched interest in the value of existing housing. For instance, north San Jose has built no new housing in a decade, despite a well known housing crisis.

Re:Why didn’t we get the four-hour workday? by lossolo on Friday January 06, 2023 @06:57PM (#34283169)
It's not housing costs for most societies in developed countries, it's keeping up with joneses, which constantly change the meaning of "standard way of living". 1000 years ago most people would kill to live in standard of currently developed countries poverty level.