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Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by chadd on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:58AM (#34277277)
in all seriousness, i'll take the contrary opinion, i love targeted ads. saves me time, and there's no way to keep my data private anyway, so i might as well get some value out of it. i wish there were a browser plugin called "please accept all cookies" which would just get rid of the friction, and as a downstream fringe benefit, show me better ads.
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by imiric on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:41PM (#34278065)
The thing is that your personal information doesn't just subject you to targeted ads. It also makes you vulnerable to propaganda, behavioral modification, and all sorts of psychological manipulation. Advertisers have known this for decades, and the internet has given them the perfect delivery method.

While you can't be entirely invisible online, you can certainly make things more difficult for adtech by changing some of your tech usage habits. Avoiding psychological manipulation is a worthwhile and achievable goal.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by Baader-Meinhof on Friday January 06, 2023 @01:21PM (#34278691)
Isn't the root issue here "propaganda" in ads? If so, should we focus on banning that?

Otherwise, if an ad is straight facts, even if it's making a specific argument based on your personality, is that intrinsically bad? Is it bad that we are exposed to convincing counter-arguments? Shouldn't we occasionally re-exam our beliefs, especially in light of new information?

More philosophically, should we, as free-willed people, be prevented from seeing "untruths"?

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by culi on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:00PM (#34279231)
deciding what is and isn't "propaganda" feels like a much harder task than forcing companies to have your consent for how they use and who they share your data with...
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by kwhitefoot on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:20PM (#34279494)
If they were just straight facts ads would be just bullet lists of features, the price, together with delivery costs and methods.

No colour, no pictures that are not strictly informative, no reviews, stars, celebrity endorsements, etc.

Perhaps someone in the AI/ML field should create a tool that distils ads down to such a bare-bones representation. I won't say down to their essence because the essence of most ads is the high octane sell not the informative part. Then instead of blocking ads uBlock and friends could fetch the distilled version.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by imiric on Friday January 06, 2023 @03:28PM (#34280570)
> if an ad is straight facts

How would you determine this? Distinguishing fact from opinion is impossibly difficult, just ask social media companies.

Besides, ads are supposed to be manipulative, otherwise they wouldn't be nearly as effective. Taken to its extreme, and with the capabilities of adtech, it's no wonder they're used for propaganda, to influence elections, etc. None of this spreads "new information" meant to educate people, but mostly falsehoods with a specific agenda from anyone willing to pay for it.

In addition to being impossible to determine what constitutes as propaganda or not, fact-checking ads would go against their whole purpose, against all the "progress" the advertising industry has made in the past century, and would crumble the current adtech giants. Hell freezing over has better chances of happening.

> More philosophically, should we, as free-willed people, be prevented from seeing "untruths"?

If those "untruths" are used to psychologically manipulate people to get them to buy, vote or think a certain way, then I'd argue that they're doing a net harm to society, and should be heavily regulated.

We can't control and fact-check speech, but we can limit its spread. What the internet has allowed is an unprecedented way of spreading information, and we can certainly control that. The difficult thing is again, determining what is "harmful" or not.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by xvector on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:08PM (#34281098)
Does the news media not "psychologically manipulate people to get them to vote or think a certain way?" By your logic, we shouldn't just ban ads, we should ban most journalism and news websites, as they are all also propaganda arms to promote different ideologies.

Rather than banning everything that's not "straight facts," from ads to the news media, maybe teaching our population critical thinking is the solution instead. If our population is dumb, it'll always be extra-vulnerable to manipulation, no matter what regulations and guardrails we put in place.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by imiric on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:33PM (#34281491)
There's an argument to be made that news media in the 20th century was focused on delivering facts, and that objective journalism as we knew it then is dead today. This shift was accelerated by the 24-hour news cycle and eventually the internet, where the media was incentivized by attention-grabbing headlines, advertising profits and private investors. When journalism was alive, opinions were sectioned off and known as editorials, and the public could assume that everything else was factual information. There's no such distinction today.

Teaching critical thinking is important, but let's not ignore the deeply rooted problems of both advertising and the modern news media.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by xvector on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:58PM (#34281858)
The Spanish-American War was literally caused by journalists. It's always been an arm of propaganda. You're seeing this through rose-tinted glasses.
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by imiric on Friday January 06, 2023 @07:00PM (#34283198)
I'm not familiar with that part of history, but I think you're mistaking and vastly overblowing the role of "yellow" journalism in that case.

Scandal and satire have been a part of MSM for a long time, but it was very clear where the line is drawn that separates it from objective journalism. While corporate and political influence existed to an extent, objectivity was seen as sacred.

If you don't see a difference between news reporting from 40 or 50 years ago and today, I don't know what to tell you.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by dmitriid on Saturday January 07, 2023 @03:16AM (#34286208)
It was still less effective globally because you couldn't reach a few billion people 24/7 at the click of a button.

And it was more effective locally because a limited selection if newspapers and TV channels was all you had access to until the Internet came along.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by schneems on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:23PM (#34281318)
> If our population is dumb

You cannot out-smart emotional manipulation. Most people who get caught up in cults believe they are too smart to fall for a cult.

> Does the news media not "psychologically manipulate people to get them to vote or think a certain way?" By your logic, we shouldn't just ban ads, we should ban most journalism and news websites, as they are all also propaganda arms to promote different ideologies.

You introduced a straw man argument to argue against. Journalists are subject to norms, pressures, and factcheckers that ads aren’t. Politicians spend big on ads that are deliberately misleading. The oversite that exists either isn’t enforced or is incredibly weak.

One way to consider ad personalization is: should someone grow richer if they know there is trauma in your life? If your friend dies, if you and your partner miscarry, if you were fired from work. Who should be allowed to profit from these events and why?

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by not_kurt_godel on Friday January 06, 2023 @03:32PM (#34280615)
Do you honestly believe that advertising is a legitimate and useful source of truthful factual information that people should be using to make decisions and shape their thinking about the world?
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by xvector on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:14PM (#34281174)
Do you honestly think that there is a single "useful source of truthful factual information" on this planet? There is not a single organization out there that will not present you facts without some sort of bias or slant.
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by not_kurt_godel on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:26PM (#34281376)
I would love to watch you tell me in person that you believe that targeted advertisements are as good a source of knowledge and information as any other on the planet, and try to keep a straight face while doing so.
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by xvector on Friday January 06, 2023 @11:12PM (#34285120)
Who cares that they're not a source of knowledge or information?
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by not_kurt_godel on Saturday January 07, 2023 @12:53AM (#34285622)
Who cares about having a conversation with someone who rejects the idea of any outside sources of information being accurate since you can never reach any sort of consensus on objective reality with them?
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by xvector on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:13PM (#34281161)
In my opinion, even "propaganda" in ads doesn't deserve to be banned. Why do we allow propaganda and bias in news media, but arbitrarily draw the line at advertisements?
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by masterof0 on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:39PM (#34278046)
Then it should be opt-in. You are free to post your personal info online.
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by dmitriid on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:41PM (#34278069)
> Then it should be opt-in.

GDPR

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by avx56 on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:42PM (#34278092)
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by NJRBailey on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:15PM (#34277589)
I agree - I mostly get ads for things I'm actually interested in (e.g. furniture), and I don't usually buy anything from them, but it at least makes me aware that there may be a new style of products available for when I next need to make a purchase. Also on occasion there will be an advert for something which I wasn't aware existed, or which shows me a new idea to consider. I'm also happy to see ads as an alternative to having to pay for access to a site.
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by dmitriid on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:40PM (#34278056)
> and there's no way to keep my data private anyway

This is leaned helplessness. Instead of giving up we should mete multi(m|b)illion fines to corporations who think that your data is theirs https://noyb.eu/en/breaking-meta-prohibited-use-personal-dat...

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by benmanns on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:05PM (#34277405)
This browser extension doesn't work everywhere, but it works some places. You can auto-decline all cookie prompts, or if you're so inclined, auto-accept: https://github.com/cavi-au/Consent-O-Matic
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by can16358p on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:48PM (#34278179)
Same here.

They have our data somehow anyways, and will always find clever non-direct ways to access it. They will also show me and I think it's fair for most free services/websites.

At least let those ads be interesting for me: which is a good thing; I've discovered and bought many goods from ads.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by boh on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:49PM (#34278195)
Do you love targeted pricing too? Like user X is more likely to buy product Y so make the price +10%. It’s a good thing that targeted pricing is illegal in many places, but oh wait, there’s an AI pricing layer which cannot be reverse engineered so evidence of price targeting can’t be found. The problem with user data is it lasts forever, and as the political and technological environment further shifts into "profit-friendliness", your user profile will grow and be more and more valuable as it provides more advantages to the counter-parties you’ll be trading with in the course of your life. It will likely affect your insurance premiums, your interest rates, your every day purchases, but I guess it’s worth it for those swell ads.
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by Baader-Meinhof on Friday January 06, 2023 @01:13PM (#34278571)
> there’s an AI pricing layer which cannot be reverse engineered so evidence of price targeting can’t be found

Is this strictly true? Couldn't we can audit the model's parameters for things analogous to the user's economic status?

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by kroltan on Friday January 06, 2023 @03:15PM (#34280373)
Most AI models are not even known about, accessible outside the system they are part of, let alone targeted for audits at all.

Unless you got enough volume of volunteer users to try and make some correlations, but then, those can still be argued not to be causation.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by jezzarax on Friday January 06, 2023 @03:24PM (#34280519)
In theory it’s easier/possible with some types of models, harder/impossible with others, but only if the model and the data processing around it is disclosed.

The bigger issue here is that some seemingly unrelated factors and their combinations (postal code, time being active during the day, even the vocabulary used in social communication) could be predictive for the user’s economic status.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by dnissley on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:24PM (#34281339)
Honestly totally fine with this and wish high demand items were mostly just auctioned off when they are first released. E.g. graphics cards, concert tickets, etc. They tend to end up in the hands of the people who want them most anyway, just through middle men (scalpers), so might as well have that value go directly to the company/artist.
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by Zak on Friday January 06, 2023 @01:18PM (#34278654)
> i wish there were a browser plugin called "please accept all cookies"

There's almost that. It doesn't always accept all cookies but it does hide the warnings: https://www.i-dont-care-about-cookies.eu/

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by remram on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:25PM (#34279568)
Could there be a standard between browsers and websites to avoid those banners? Similar to the Do Not Track header, a Accept Cookies header?

Contrary to ad-blocking where the website very much wants you to see ads, and is not going to help you in blocking them, this is a situation where they might be interested to help.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by recursive on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:40PM (#34279824)
This is a real problem, but it has gotten quite silly at this point. A user agent can reject cookies by merely not doing anything with them. A user agent can signal that it accepts cookies by just retaining them.

You might argue that we could save a pittance in bandwidth by eliding the Set-Cookie header entirely. However, the potential savings here is a drop in the bucket compared to the ocean of javascript to handle the consent banners.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by FrontAid on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:44PM (#34279893)
> Similar to the Do Not Track header, a Accept Cookies header?

Do not track can do that, it has three possible values.

    0: The user prefers to allow tracking on the target site.
    1: The user prefers not to be tracked on the target site.
    null: The user has not specified a preference about tracking.
Source: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/DN...

The problem is that DNT is mostly ignored, and also deprecated by now.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by Zak on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:47PM (#34279940)
I am not a lawyer or a GDPR expert, but I think that probably wouldn't satisfy the intent of the GDPR any more than current browser capabilities to accept or reject third-party cookies would.
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by OneLeggedCat on Friday January 06, 2023 @01:55PM (#34279167)
I can't wait for insurance companies to start charging higher or lower rates based on the personality traits they've gleaned.
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by manicennui on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:08PM (#34279333)
If they had the data and found them to be significant predictors of future behavior, I'm sure they would. One must be very careful when doing this in industries like insurance and lending though, as they can be proxies for protected classes.
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by manicennui on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:07PM (#34279320)
Do you have money burning a hole in your pocket? I don't want to be constantly prompted to buy and consume things.

When I have a problem, I research solutions and buy a product or service if necessary. I don't care what those with the largest marketing budgets think I should buy. I also follow companies on social media that I know and trust if I think I might be interested in their future products.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by drusepth on Friday January 06, 2023 @03:24PM (#34280514)
>Do you have money burning a hole in your pocket? I don't want to be constantly prompted to buy and consume things.

On the other hand, I like to be constantly made aware of new things I might like to buy and/or consume. That way, when I do have a little extra cash to burn (or just want to save up for something, or want to be inspired to create something similar), I already have a feel for what all is out there without having to spend extra time researching "cool stuff I don't know about".

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by timeon on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:25PM (#34281365)
This sounds like peak consumerism.
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by xvector on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:15PM (#34281192)
Why do you want to push your austere approach to purchases on everyone else?
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by manicennui on Friday January 06, 2023 @06:32PM (#34282903)
I don't.

The only ones having anything forced on them are those who don't want to be bombarded by ads and those who don't want their data sold and those who don't want to be tracked.

Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by xapata on Friday January 06, 2023 @05:56PM (#34282564)
I'm pretty good, I think, about sticking to my shopping list. However, I don't always have time to research vendors. Finding a new vendor in a banner advertisement can be helpful. Just the other day, I discovered a local manufacturer of iron railings who apparently is better at buying ads on Facebook than at creating an indexable website.
Re:Please Sell My Personal Information by manicennui on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:10PM (#34279351)
I also wanted to mention that I allow Google to have as much of my activity history as they want, and I don't find their ads to be any more relevant.