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Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by alexb_ on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @10:14AM (#34246431)
I disagree. The biggest thing that can help you learn something complex is by introducing it as it was discovered, and making someone feel like they could have come up with it on their own.
Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by msla on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @10:26AM (#34246613)
Things were usually discovered in a confusing way that kind of made sense at the time, but had false starts and conceptual limitations driven by people still being in an older mindset when they were trying to discover it. A good teacher sands off those edges, leading to an oversimplified history, but not starting from the firm conceptual footing we only got later on still makes things overly difficult to grasp. Good teaching builds on concepts, even if history took a messier route.
Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by sifar on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @10:39AM (#34246830)
>> Things were usually discovered in a confusing way that kind of made sense at the time, but had false starts and conceptual limitations driven by people still being in an older mindset when they were trying to discover it

To know this gives us some perspective on our own biases/limitations and not take things as gospel.

Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by a9h74j on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @05:19PM (#34252711)
> some perspective on our own biases/limitations

This is sometimes prescribed in such form as: "Fraction X of your reading should be of authors writing at least 100 years ago."

Similar: In defense of the reading of old books by C.S. Lewis ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFHQDIE7CSw

"All contemporary writers [of any period] share, to some extent, the contemporary outlook."

Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by tchaffee on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @10:46AM (#34246912)
That's not the biggest thing that can help you learn something complex. Practice is the biggest thing. And there are many variations of what motivates people to practice.
Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by jasode on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:21AM (#34247500)
>learn something complex. Practice is the biggest thing.

But "practice" and "drills" of complex math as done in typical USA schools don't really help many students truly learn the advanced topics. That's why you end up with students who get an 'A' on the test because they memorized the mindless rules to multiply polynomials or calculate the determinant of a matrix but still have no understanding of the underlying math. It was just some weird rules in Algebra to memorize and pass the test. "Mindless plug-n-chug" as people call it.

Repetition of drills do seem to work well for elementary students and basic math like arithmetic: counting, addition, multiplication tables.

But drills is a tool to teach understanding has major shortcomings for later advanced math like Algebra, Calculus, Differential Equations, etc. -- even for the students that got an 'A' on their math tests.

That's why you often get comments on Youtube math explanation videos with variation of, "I studied Fourier Transform in school and somehow pass my exam but this video finally explains what it is! Thank You!!!"

Clearly, there's a huge gap that practice exercises do not address.

Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by amluto on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:18AM (#34247444)
I don’t see why the history of discovery of something should be a particularly good way to rediscover it.

As a concrete example, if someone asks “how do we know the Earth is round” or “how do we know the planets orbit the sun”, one could go through ways to figure this out with math and minimal technology. But one could also point out that we have spaceships and probes and have actual pictures! You can see the Earth from a satellite or the ISS or the moon, and you can see the planets from space!

I agree that a process of rediscovery can be a useful teaching technique, but that doesn’t mean that rediscovering something the way it was first known to have been discovered is the right approach.

Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by VLM on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:31AM (#34247676)
Another concrete example of the conflict is classical vs quantum physics which is nearly exclusively taught as the historical story of the quantum revolution or whatever you call it around 1900.

It would be trivial to skip the historical story and just "yo here's a FET transistor, a solar cell, and a vacuum tube, and the math just works, so get used to it" but nobody is ever taught that way.

Would be interesting for someone to attempt to write a non-historical physics textbook.

On the other hand, in IT, this style of learning is considered normal. "This is how the kool kids do things today. The past does not matter and probably didn't exist anyway. The end."

Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by chriswarbo on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:48AM (#34247928)
> Would be interesting for someone to attempt to write a non-historical physics textbook.

I recall some prominent physicist saying they've never read Einstein's original papers on relativity; and they don't have any real desire to, since we understand it much better now, and have better examples, notations, etc.

Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by hyperjeff on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @12:39PM (#34248742)
Most physicists have never read them, nor would it help. Most classic papers go unread, and it’s not a bad thing. How things get sorted out is usually a huge mess and following the real history is an enormous distraction (and can confuse and misdirect students).
Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by cycomanic on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @03:19PM (#34250870)
While that is true, I would highly encourage everyone to read the original EPR (Einstein Podolski Rosen) it is so amazingly clear in its writing and can be understood even by laymen.
Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by bee_rider on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:50AM (#34247966)
A downside to the modern approach is that “plug the equations into a computer and let it churn for a bit” plays a big role I think. This is seems a bit annoying from a teaching point of view

* “here’s what the computer came up with” doesn’t really build as much intuition as doing the equations out by hand

* there’s enough material in “how to plug it into a computer and make it run quickly” for a whole degree

Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by alexb_ on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @03:31PM (#34251062)
>On the other hand, in IT, this style of learning is considered normal. "This is how the kool kids do things today. The past does not matter and probably didn't exist anyway. The end."

And yet nand2tetris is one of the most common suggestions for people who actually want to figure out how computers work. Because you actually are posed with problems that real world engineers used to struggle with, and are allowed to play with the problem before finding out the answer. It builds a much deeper understanding than "it works like this because it is"

Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by aap_ on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @05:25PM (#34252777)
But nand2tetris doesn't have a historical approach if i'm not mistaken.
Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by bee_rider on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:47AM (#34247910)
“How do we know the world is round” is an interesting example to use. Eratosthenes got an estimate for the radius of the Earth that was pretty close using, I dunno, sticks and his eyeball or whatever ancient Greeks had.

The history is useful there, I think. First off, it is motivating — that’s a pretty big question, really shows what math can accomplish without much hardware. Second, it provides some sort of useful constraints if you are trying to work out the computation yourself. In a textbook the problems are always a bit artificial, some info will be given, some hidden. “Anything an Ancient Greek would have” is a bit more real-world, you can see where the constraints come from.

Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by not2b on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @12:15PM (#34248394)
Erastosthenes did it by comparing the angle of the shadow cast by a stick on the summer solstice at noon in two cities, Alexandria and Syene (now Aswan), which are about 800 km apart. What was special about Syene was that it is so close to the Tropic of Cancer line that the sun would hit the bottoms of wells on the solstice, meaning that he only needed one stick, in Alexandria, and the distance between the cities, to do his estimate. His error was about 2%.

He's also famous for the sieve of Erastosthenes for finding prime numbers and figuring out the earth's axial tilt.

Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by a9h74j on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @04:56PM (#34252426)
Darn, at some point I started imagining he had a protocol for synchronizing clocks over a distance. assuming the difference was in longitude. (E.g. Symmetric NTP over carrier pidgeon.)
Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by not2b on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @05:56PM (#34253164)
Longitude was a much tougher problem to solve.
Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by a9h74j on Thursday January 05, 2023 @02:05AM (#34256943)
Yea, recalling the book of that name might have contributed to my drift of recollection. Solvable earlier on land (but not sea) on terms of clock synchronization.
Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by amluto on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @05:48PM (#34253071)
You can get a vaguely credible estimate by standing on a (small!) hill and measuring the distance to the horizon. Works better if you have a body of water handy, because bodies of water are nice and flat.
Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by not2b on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @12:17PM (#34248419)
I think it can depend on the particular discovery whether we should teach "here's how the first person figured it out" or skip right to "here's how a later person found a much better, easier to understand approach".
Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by r_strongbow on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @01:36PM (#34249529)
I've been interested for awhile in a distinction between math and philosophy here. Just descriptively speaking, we don't tend to teach math from original source (at least, not well-established math like you'd see in high school and early college). We don't teach calculus out of Newton/Leibniz/Cauchy/etc, we don't teach Fourier analysis out of Fourier, etc. Maybe geometry students will work from the Elements, but I certainly didn't.

But in philosophy, students do read everyone from Plato to Rawls in the original. There are (lots of) supplementary texts, of course, but they're companions.

I think that shows an interesting divide that the way we actually think about philosophy is not just a catalogue of arguments and positions one could take, but that the famous works are things worth reading unto themselves. There are a few math papers like that ("God Created the Integers" tries to anthologize them) but they are the exception rather than the rule.

But maybe there's another explanation?

Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by diordiderot on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @02:15PM (#34250037)
Two contributers I can think of

1. Being able to tease apart language from ideas can't be 'taught' you have to do it

2. People disagree much more in philosophy than math

Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by friedman23 on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:25AM (#34247584)
I agree, one book I recommend that does this for computing is "Code: The Hidden Language of Computer Hardware and Software"
Re:The Calculus They Won't Teach You [video] by bmitc on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @12:20PM (#34248456)
The way calculus was discovered was via highly geometric methods that are beyond the comprehension of people today. So the historical development of calculus needs to be modernized into modern notation and concepts, which at that point basically becomes examples.

While calculus is actually easy to develop and motivate, the way we "discover" it today is nowhere close to how it was originally discovered.

In my opinion, calculus is most easily motivated via physical examples. Here is a curve, it represents some information, and what are some things we'd like to know about this curve and thus the information it represents? What are some things we can do with that information? Such motivation can be more abstract and not rely on physical examples, but I think the physical examples help tie it to the so-called real world and somewhat mirrors, in spirit, how and why calculus was originally developed.