> it does have different meanings too

the meaning is the same high level: it has side effects, being it a destructive update, an in place operation or throwing an exception.

> `sorted` is a general function that gives you a sorted list from any iterable

iterable in Python is a very loose concept though.

And it's not very consistent too

    sorted("gheliabciou")
    ['a', 'b', 'c', 'e', 'g', 'h', 'i', 'i', 'l', 'o', 'u']

you give it a str it returns a list of char

in Ruby it makes much more sense

   "gheliabciou".chars.sort.join
   "abceghiilou"

You take out the chars from the string, sort them and then join them together again

because a string cannot be sorted, sorting a string makes no sense, you sort the chars composing it.

Also, Python could not do this for many years, while Ruby could no prob

  sorted("gheliabciouß⌚⌨⌛🆔🉑🈶🈚🈸🈺🈷🆚🉐㊙㊗🈴")

You can use emoji in HN comments? Emojis get automatically removed from mine.

Edit: ok, some do and some don’t. 🈶 is allowed but :laugh_with_tears: isn’t. I guess there’s a specific list of emojis that are getting stripped.

There are specific blocks that are filtered out.

for reference ;)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19482991

Lots of objects don't have a natural way to return a sorted version of themselves, especially inplace (what's the reverse sort of a range, for example). You get the same in Ruby, as you've just demonstrated. Sorting into a list is the only thing that makes sense in all cases.

In that way `sorted` _is_ totally consistent - it always takes an iterable and returns a list of the elements. If we can't agree on that then I don't think there's much of a discussion to be had here.

> In that way `sorted` _is_ totally consistent - it always takes an iterable and returns a list of the elements

except Iterable is the wrong "interface"

in Python it is defined as

> An iterable is any Python object capable of returning its members one at a time, permitting it to be iterated over in a for-loop.

which is not always what you want for sorting

quicksort doesn't work one element at a time

so basically you have to extract all the elements before sorting them

what about infinite streams?

At least Ruby Enumerable mixins explicitly states that

> The Enumerable mixin provides collection classes with several traversal and searching methods, and with the ability to __sort__.

Another problem with sorted is that it accepts any iterable, true, returning a list of items, but it is not clear how you can tell if the object is an iterbale or not

  >>> sorted(123)
  Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  TypeError: 'int' object is not iterable

ok

  >>> isinstance(123, iterable)
  Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  NameError: name 'iterable' is not defined

mmmm

maybe it's because int is not iterable?

  >>> isinstace("abc", iterable)
  Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  NameError: name 'iterable' is not defined

so the solutions are

  # fails for strings in Python 2
  >>> try:
     _ = iter(some_object)
  except TypeError as te:
     print('is not iterable')

or

  # if 2.6 >= Python < 3.3
  from collections import Iterable
  # if Python >= 3.3
  from collections.abc import Iterable # <- personal note, abc stands for...? core maybe?
  # no idea on how to do it in Python < 2.6

  >>> isinstance("abc", Iterable)
  True

not only it's very ugly, but it can also fail in mysterious ways. As per documentation

Checking isinstance(obj, Iterable) detects classes that are registered as Iterable or that have an __iter__() method, but it does not detect classes that iterate with the __getitem__() method. The only reliable way to determine whether an object is iterable is to call iter(obj).

while in Ruby it's straightforward

  [3] pry(main)> [1, 2].is_a? Enumerable
  => true

  [4] pry(main)> "abc".is_a? Enumerable
  => false

  [5] pry(main)> "abc".chars.is_a? Enumerable
  => true