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Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by opportune on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @10:41PM (#34241736)
The anti stock is a great idea, I am surprised Wall Street doesn’t do this already to create synthetic longs.

Unfortunately it would be hard to collateralize since there is technically no limit to the dividend, similar to a sold call, but just like a sold call you could collateralize with an equivalent sized long position. That could probably be useful for tax optimization (similar to how many of the crypto lending services require full or over collateralization of the underlying, with the market generally being people who want to spend appreciated crypto without realizing a gain). It could also be extremely useful for market making - when you can’t get a share to sell to fill an order, you generate a synthetic long and anti stock, provided you can convince clearing houses you’ll be able to get a real stock to swap with the synthetic.

Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by 6yyyyyy on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @11:38PM (#34242098)
>I am surprised Wall Street doesn’t do this already to create synthetic longs.

A comment on the post covers that: It's called a "bucket shop", and it's illegal.

Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by monero-xmr on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @11:47PM (#34242133)
Synthetix has been running a bucket shop for a long time. They added stocks through Kwenta but got spooked and removed them.

https://synthetix.io/

Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @11:58PM (#34242205)
> Synthetix has been running a bucket shop for a long time

Well, this is an awkward moment to be in a car with a connected friend from Adelaide!

Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by TeMPOraL on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @04:19AM (#34243630)
Invite them to our HN bashing on defi subthread party here!
Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @11:31AM (#34247677)
Given Synthetix is based in NSW, the bashing will come in a more formal forum.
Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by SilasX on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @12:35AM (#34242391)
I don't see how this is describing the same thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucket_shop_(stock_market)

The Wikipedia description of a bucket shop says that it's gambling market on stock prices. The anti-stock idea in the article is a security where the holder is obligated to pay out the same dividends as the underlying stock. Not the same thing, AFAICT.

Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by julkali on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @05:53AM (#34244165)
Not relevant to the discussion but why is it illegal? Would save a lot of transaction fees ...
Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by ravel-bar-foo on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @06:58AM (#34244551)
Probably because the counterparty is the dealer, so the dealer has to manipulate prices and terms in their favor to turn a profit. Also, since no actual stocks trade hands, there is no effect on stock price and no investment value.
Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by acover on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @09:43AM (#34246021)
There are derivatives that settle in cash[1]. How do they differ from a bucket shop?

[1] - https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/cashsettlement.asp

Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by seanhunter on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @01:02AM (#34242531)
> The anti stock is actually a great idea, I am surprised Wall Street doesn’t do this already to create synthetic longs

Wall Street already does do this (and basically anything else you can think of that “Wall Street doesn’t do”). There are (at least) two forms. Firstly an Equity Swap[1] and secondly a Total Return Swap[2] (which is just Wall Street’s Swiss army knife tool for synthetically being long/short the return on some asset or basket).

If you just want to long/short the price return (and don’t include dividends which are mentioned in TFA) then there are also contracts for difference (CFDs) where the parties swap the price return on an equity. When I was in this business those were usually used because of tax differences between capital gains and other types of tax.

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/equityswap.asp refers to it as having an index on one side and a rate on the other side, but there’s no reason not to have a single stock rather than an equity index and we used to do these 15 years ago when I worked in equities

[2] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/totalreturnswap.asp

Edit to add: There are also “dividend swaps” where the parties just swap the dividend return on the asset if you only care about that stream. This is sometimes helpful matching investors who have tax or other structural problems with receiving dividends with others who just want a dividend income stream without the asset price risk.

Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by pram on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @03:58AM (#34243501)
Yeah I was thinking of CFDs but they don't exist in the US afaik.
Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by rich_sasha on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @04:24AM (#34243665)
They do, as do TR swaps. They may not be advantageous for tax reasons.

For example, at one point, trading equities via swaps carrier a tax benefit to the end user, at no significant cost to the bank arranging this. Lots of institutions used that for trading. But later, the tax advantage was lost, while banks were forced to treat these swaps as a proper credit liability, thus depleting the pool of available capital. So people stopped doing this.

This is about 10 years outdated so I'm not sure what status quo is, but as a hack, this definitely exists in the US.

Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by iandanforth on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @08:43AM (#34245420)
I wish everything typed above were illegal and the people who think up such things thrown in jail immediately.
Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by AtlasBarfed on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @03:15AM (#34243276)
Weren't all the big shorts essentially synthetic longs?

(Edit: Context: the movie "The Big Short")

Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by seanhunter on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @04:05AM (#34243547)
The actual big short (haven't seen the movie) was on a credit default swap index[1] (it was on one of the CMBX series which have commercial mbs as underlying[2]. There are also RMBX series for residential mortgages). CDSs are a swap (ie they are synthetic by definition) where one person is long the risk (short the protection) and one person is long the protection (and therefore short the risk). So the concept of who is long and short can be a little confusing.

[1]Source: worked at Goldman as a strat (quant developer) on the mortgages desk at the time. I knew and worked with pretty much all of the people involved although I was based in London. The actual person who came up with the research behind the short idea was a fellow strat and brilliant econometrician[3] and most of the trading guys fought him like hell over it only to later found hedge funds and pretend that it was their idea all along.

[2] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/cmbx_indexes.asp

[3] Michael Marschoun https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/Michae...

Re:Even More Bay Area House Party by mlla on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @04:42AM (#34243772)
Dividend derivatives have been a thing for quite a while. When Covid lockdowns started in 2020, EU mandated that EU banks are not allowed to pay dividends and Société Générale took quite a hit: "SocGen said it lost about 200 million euros on products related to the cancellation of dividend payments in the trading business." [1]

Some more information about available dividend derivatives on EUREX: https://www.eurexchange.com/resource/blob/80940/d5a6e620224a...

[1] https://www.straitstimes.com/business/banking/socgen-posts-s...