No need for the comparison, few will ever know the weight that some of these icons carry, the people they are surrounded by who change the course of their lives, for better or for worse. Maradona was no saint or role model, but this is a celebration of what Pelé was able to accomplish.

I'm making the comparison because the comparison was made for decades. Pelé versus Maradona is the original GOAT wars.

Many comparisons were made for decades, that doesn't mean you should bring it up unprompted during the announcement of the death of one of the subjects purely to disparage the other side. If you want to honor pele, act as he would, instead of using his death as another opportunity to bring up what was effectively an old timers console war.

> an all around nice guy

I hate to be that guy, but.. he had a daughter that he didn't want to recognize, Sandra, she had to sue him (she did prove he was her father, but ended up receiving no money. she however could use his surname)

She also died of cancer, just like he died today, but back in 2006. Not even after she died he would show up - he sent flowers through his company, so.. that's not my definition of an all around nice guy

That's also not a man that somehow didn't want children. He also had 6 other children that he treated just fine. How would you live knowing that your father rejects you, but not your brothers and sisters?

So, one mistake is all is needed to fade away all other great things he did?

I honestly don't have any horse in this race: Pelé probably was an all-around great guy. To call a lifetime of ignoring your child "one mistake" feels like a mischaracterization, though. It might not even be considered a bad thing, but it's definitely an ongoing decision.

As an analogy, I eat meat. Future generations might see that as immoral. It's definitely not a mistake I made one time, though, it's an ongoing choice that I'm making repeatedly over the course of my life.

A mistake is required to be a “one time thing”? There’s no “continues mistake”?

I do believe he’s super wrong on this subject, but not even for a moment I consider him as a bad person because of that.

You are more forgiving than a lot of people. I know very little about football or Pele, but this particular "mistake" seems like a biggie.

It's like you be a nice guy 99.9% of the time, but in the remaining percent you murder someone. All your niceness is nullified by your single action.

It's not like he forgot to tip the waitress. He rejected his own daughter. How would you like it if your father actively tried to ignore your existence? Have some empathy for a fellow human being. It's horrible behavior, regardless of Pele's fame.

It's a bit weird though, I can't imagine disowning a child but why not? People put kids up for adoption.

It's really weird to insist on using your biological father's surname if they disown you.

Adoption and disowning have very different connotations. Generally adoption is seen as a best attempt to find someone who can take care of the kid. Generally disowning is seen as just washing your hands of the situation I think.

It's a very unfortunate situation.

But what grosses me out is if Pelé were not who he is. She wouldn't have been so insistent on using his name.

I doubt it was a yearning to connect with her ancestor that lead to it and not money and fame. She had a mum, use her surname she raised you!

I dunno, never met her, not able to analyze her motives. That seems like a lot to project on a person who died in 2006 though. Perhaps she felt like she deserved to be treated like the rest of his children or something.

> Perhaps she felt like she deserved to be treated like the rest of his children or something.

You think ahe tried to sue him into loving her? That's so gross.

Yea, that’s the gross to do thing that we should focus on in this scenario…

It's not sue him into loving her. It's sue him to address a gross violation of her rights.

Unfortunately his daughter wasn't put up for adoption (which would be an entirely fine thing to do!). When you are put to adoption, you have a new family, and it is complete in itself.

She was deprived not only of the contact of his father but also her siblings and extended family from the father side, and for no reason at all. She always knew who her father was and knew that he wanted nothing to do with her.

TIL people without families aren't allowed to adopt kids alone as that'd violate the human right to extended family!

It’s only a misteak if you eat at Geno’s. Don’t make a misteak, eat at Pat’s.

Not even going to point out that the OP isn’t even trying to overlook all the good things he did.

It’s a stretch to argue that a lifetime of neglect is a singular mistake. This was an ongoing issue that he kept choosing over and over again.

On social networks yes. Because all nuance is lost and things are only white and black.

It’s stupid and part of why they are so bad for my personal mental health

> I hate to be that guy

I bet that's a lie.

Sounds like Steve Jobs and his daughter Lisa Brennan-Jobs whom he denied paternity for several years. No success can compensate for failure in the home.

Yeah but how many iPhones did Pele invent?

The same number as Steve Jobs.

Also Pele was always okay being used as a PR stunt during the dictatorship against which he has never spoken a word.

Just spent a month in Rio and a friend brought this up when we were discussing Pele’s legacy (right when he was rumored to be in hospice).

I also learned that a lot of Brazilians (at least in Rio) are bigger fans of their local/favorite club team than the national team so many who aren’t Santos fans don’t consider him the greatest (even though they obviously loved him).

Not sure about the people you spent time with but, I'd say, with no doubt, that the bigger share of brazilians consider Pelé the goat.

I’m not qualified to say one way or the other what the majority thinks since I haven’t travelled the country talking football. But I was certainly surprised that it’s not a forgone conclusion, especially for young people who think other star players have accomplished more in the Brasileirão.

Pele's side

Lawyer and former Congressman Vicente Cascione is a staunch supporter of Pelé. He guarantees that he was called by the King of football for a meeting that would be held at the house of Lúcia, Pelé's sister, in Ponta da Praia, in Santos, in August 1992.

The meeting, four years before Sandra Regina (Pelé's daughter) went to court to demand recognition of paternity, would be held with the presence of Pelé, Lúcia, Davi, a former soccer player and married to Lúcia, and Sandra.

“I remember well. It was a Saturday afternoon. I was not Pelé's lawyer. I saw Pelé start his football career at Santos. He just called me so I could listen to the conversation I was having with Sandra. Pelé would acknowledge paternity, without any problem”, says Cascione.

The problem, according to Vicente's account, was caused by Sandra's lawyer at the time.

“This lawyer, who has already passed away, called the press to the meeting. So, he arrived and started giving interviews on the street. Sandra didn't even go to the meeting. The lawyer appeared. It would be the first contact that Pelé would have with Sandra. But the one who showed up was the lawyer. A terrible situation was created. Pelé was very irritated with the lawyer's attitude and decided to just assume paternity in court", said Vicente Cascione.

“When Pelé saw that the lawyer had called the press to the meeting, he looked at me and said: I was betrayed. Now I will only recognize paternity in court”, remembers Vicente Cascione.

This lawyer sucks.

> “When Pelé saw that the lawyer had called the press to the meeting, he looked at me and said: I was betrayed. Now I will only recognize paternity in court”, remembers Vicente Cascione.

I understand he was pissed, and I don't fault him for this specifically (even though it was a poor decision)

The trouble was all the other decisions he did regarding her, during her whole life. Do you think he acted like he did just because of the PR stunt caused by the lawyer? It would be kind of lame to hold this grudge for decades.

Lol. It's super easy to judge all that when you're not using his shoes. Anyway, his achievements won't overcome his failures and vice-versa, just as any human in this planet.

> about Maradona who will be remembered perhaps more for cheating and dying a fat cokehead than for his ball carrying.

I thought you French guys were butthurt by Messi, not Maradona.

I’m from Argentina, and I think for the people of my generation (90s onwards) the image we have of el Diego is that he was a cheating fat coke head who supported all the wrong politicians, and left us with an infinite amount of memes and phrases, mostly related to cocaine.

My parents generation will probably have a different feel about the guy, as they saw him in all his glorious days, whereas we only knew his decadent state.

Messi is light years better of a person. If anything people should think of him as the greatest Argentinian player of all time

During the final we played like utter rubbish for 80 minutes, I don't see what Messi's got to do with it.

Please don't take HN threads into flamewar hell.

(I realize the GP was provocative and this is a passionate topic, but the solution cannot be to drive further to the hellpits)

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

>You can't say the same about Maradona who will be remembered perhaps more for cheating and dying a fat cokehead than for his ball carrying.

Despite him being a scumbag in many aspects of the personal life, this is way off the mark. He is one of the all time GOATs and his adoration in Argentina borders on the fanatical.

Seconded. Here in Argentina Maradona is (was?) a highly polarizing celebrity, and of course has detractors, but his admirers are multitude and he is worshipped as a person, not just as a soccer player.

It's absolutely not true that he is widely remembered as a scumbag; some people of course do, others acknowledge that he struggled with drugs all of his life but he came from humble beginnings and never forgot nor reneged on this, and many call him D10S (a play on Spanish "dios" and the number 10 he wore on his t-shirt). That's not the mark of someone widely remembered as a scumbag.

It really depends on who you ask in Argentina, he was a very divisive figure.

Sports wise, he was a genius.

As a person? He was a total asshole.

Yes, that's what I said. Divisive. By no means true that he is widely considered a scumbag, since a vast number of Argies idolize him as a person.

Remember that's the argument I'm responding to, that outside the soccer field Maradona's legacy is that of a scumbag. That's simply untrue.

One of few great players whos personality match their ability as a player.

If you want to do Pelé any favours, I would stick with the ball carrying.

Outside ball carrying, at least to me, Maradona was much more admirable because he remained unapologetically himself. Pelé on the other hand, eventually became a salesman of his own image: a permanent smile on his face, always talking in platitudes to keep everyone happy, fully aligned with his (not so innocent) FIFA bosses.

Imho that's not entirely true. Pelé used his own image to try to make Brazil a better place to his people and to contribute to the sport, sometimes even in a naive and childish way.

He certainly wasn't a perfect person, with controversial attitudes throughout his life, but let's remember that he had humble beginnings like many black poor boys in Brazil whose destiny was to starve and, at least publicly, he always acted as a citizen of the world trying to sell a good image from Brazil. he was never involved in drugs.