Buying a Tesla has a direct impact on Musk’s wealth and ability to lobby and spread his values, which are diametrically opposed to mine. I’ll spend my money elsewhere.

> which are diametrically opposed to mine. I’ll spend my money elsewhere.

does 'exploiting African children for cobalt' feature in list of values.

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/drc-mining-industry-c...

How do you reconcile your 'buying things based on values' by supporting people who exploit children.

From the article:

>Last year, many took to social media using the hashtag #NoCongoNoPhone to fight against the cobalt supply

Sounds like a win/win to me. End the terrible scourge of child labor, and end the lesser (but far more prevalent) scourge of ubiquitous smart phones.

> Sounds like a win/win to me.

Its not one of your values because there was some hashtag?

Not sure if you are making a sarcastic joke about the hashtag but how are child miners 'winners'?

Apologies for not being clear. I was being fairly serious --- if we could actually prevent predatory mining practices that would actually be a huge win, and it would also be great if cell phones (and specifically smart phones) were no long ubiquitous.

Could you explain what point you are trying to make? All of your posts in this thread seem to assume the person you are responding to said the opposite of what they actually said.

Above the poster said they would not buy a Tesla and you implied they would be supporting child miners by doing so? Where the article you linked associates Tesla with child labour in cobalt mining.

Here the poster said ending child labour was a 'win' and "how are child miners 'winners'" - aren't you in agreement that ending child labour is a 'win'?

You make assumptions that:

A. The parent has a smart phone.

B. The parents smart phone contains cobalt from the Congo.

C. That the parent isn't doing anything to minimise their purchase of new phones by using them longer, only buying second hand etc.

And that's all assuming that this is indeed a value they hold.

And even with all that, there's plenty of stuff wrong with the world. For a multi thousand dollar purchase I'd spend more time thing about the ethical implications than something that is smaller. We all have to pick and choose our battles, I don't think you can damn anyone for not being happy about the system but still engaging with it.

i was talking about EV not smartphone wrt cobalt.

> We all have to pick and choose our battles

yes agreed why not choose the most egregious then if you are taking a moral stance. Children digging out cobalt with their bare hands for your EV should outrank whatever stupid stuff elon is doing. no?

Right but if there's a choice of 2 EVs without Congolese cobalt, you can choose the one that isn't Tesla.

But anyway, humans aren't perfectly rational beings. Elon being a nob on twitter is more immediate to many people than abstract children in the Congo. I'm not saying that's morally correct, but it's how people work.

yea thats true. I am still hoping that one of these EV company heads acknowledges this some day and can be addressed.

When you buy a Tesla, I doubt Elon gets a check in your name for some percentage of the purchase price. Tesla is a company with many investors, Elon being one of them sure but conversely I’m sure there are a number people you like/support that also have a vested interested in Tesla’s success.

"Support [company] because maybe some of your friends invested in it" is a really lame argument that could be applied to virtually any company. Support Exxon because the firm that manages your grandmother's pension might be invested in Exxon... please. All this argument leads to is uncritical cheer-leading of everything.

And what values are those?

Well he recently posted a meme suggesting that climate change, homosexuality, and vaccines are brainwashing liberals

I presume this one https://mobile.twitter.com/elonmusk/status/16079975918701240...

I don't see climate change in there but the other stuff and masks etc.

And what about the other car manufacturers CEOs? Are they "better"? Or they just don't tweet their thoughts?

Keeping their thoughts to themselves does make them better to some, yea.

Are there any brands you pick or avoid because of their politics? Hobby Lobby, Amazon, etc?

I’m not obsessively political about my purchases, but I’m also not 100% amoral/apolitical. I’m curious if anyone really is.

No. My monetary spend to any one vendor is immaterial. Doesn’t move the needle. If you want change, laws and regulation are the only path.

But by the same reasoning your individual vote is also immaterial. Since you clearly wouldn't waste your time voting, how do you move the needle on laws and regulation?

You're treating it like people who would judge you based on the car you drive make some kind of high-minded ethical choice, but they're in reality looking for a reason to get their peers to accept a smaller group of people that still includes them, because that makes them relatively speaking higher status. They can't just make things up because they couldn't coordinate around that, but with Elon acting like a lighthouse, they can invent a new norm and benefit from being the first to adopt it.

Wow you really nailed your outgroup on that one!

It's not a group that's like this, it's a widely distributed human behavior (I'm not quite cynical enough to call it a universal human behavior although some would.)

Sure, but it’s those people who behave that way.

They're not a group in the sense of "an in(out)group." That would require some kind of identity. It's a behavioral tendency in the sense of having a short temper or being gregarious, rather than a belief system or a club.

> If I made my purchasing decisions according to the personal failings of the corporate executive teams of all of consumer and durable goods, I might as well live in a tent in the woods.

Elon Musk's involvement with the companies he is associated with is not the usual involvement that an executive team would have. His personal brand is intermingled with the products he sells and cars are a way of signaling social status whether we like it or not. There are certainly people for whom buying a new Tesla would decrease their social capital which could have negative impacts in other areas of their life (relevant to HN, social capital converts to actual capital in many cases by opening up business opportunities).

We're in a grace period right now when it comes to driving a Tesla, where people who already owned one can't really be blamed for supporting Musk, but the day has already arrived when buying a new one will signal poor taste and lack of social acumen to much of the white collar class.

Vulgarity is relative so if your crowd isn't this crowd, fine. But you can't blame people for wanting to avoid putting stigma on themselves when there are other EVs on the market nearly as good as Teslas which don't have the same toxicity.

Sounds like some stuff bored 1800s European aristocrats would care about, busy living their now pointless performative lives while revolutions are brewing and the industrial revolution is about to put the petite bourgeoisie in control of everything.

I understand what you are implying. Elon Musk has aligned himself with what appears to be a power structure that aims to replace the current dominant social order. If a social revolution comes due to war, economic restructuring or some other black swan event and The Daily Wire becomes the new CNN and Saturday Night Live skits come straight from The Babylon Bee, yes, the crowd that sees Teslas as toxic will be marginalized.

We'll see if that comes to pass. I'm guessing it won't, but if it does I'll adjust accordingly to the new reality as will we all.

Oh no, signaling poor taste. The travesty. Let others live their life according to the whims of “the white collar class.” I’m going to enjoy what I enjoy, and I’d like to associate with like minded folks.

I said that if you don't associate with the crowds I'm talking about it doesn't matter.

Ironically pretending that we don't play social signaling games and critiquing others for playing them is itself a sort of social signaling game. These games can't be avoided because they are a fundamental part of human interaction, so much so that when we aren't good at playing those games for whatever reason we are unable to function properly in society and are pathologized as a result.

Sure, you do you. Plenty of people fly confederate flags, and they have every right to do so. Just as other people have every right to judge them. This is the way.

>Oh no, signaling poor taste

...

>I’d like to associate with like minded folks

And how do you signal to like minded folks?

A car specifically might not be important to you as a signaller but if you do want to associate with like minded folks you are going to seek to emulate and fit in with those groups. That's kind of how society and humans work.

Suggesting the Tesla brand is “toxic” is preposterous. Saying something like that in real life would get you laughed at.

Perhaps you should Google "Tesla brand damage" and see a plethora of brand professionals opining that this is exactly what's happening.

Here's one being quoted [0]

[0] https://www.carscoops.com/2022/12/tesla-investors-and-custom...

> Saying something like that in real life would get you laughed at.

All you've told me here is that the people you personally associate would laugh at the idea that Tesla is a toxic brand. The world is not made up of a single social group with a single set of norms. In the groups I associate with, and no we are not blue haired SJWs I am married with a family in the suburbs and work a boring corporate job, Tesla is toxic.

Some things I try to keep in mind as much as possible:

- We are all operating from different frames of reference.

- Social networks are fundamental to our survival: people will go to great lengths to stay in the good graces of their families, friends and associates.

- "Society" is a huge tapestry of interlocking social networks, each with its own internal logic and reward systems.

- The logic and reward systems of the most powerful networks tend to leak into all the others over time to some degree.

If you’re going to make the “there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism” point, then why bother with an EV?

For the same price, you can get a nicer ICE.

That is why Elon’s actions are so weird. I agree with you that a chicken sandwich or paper towel executive can do whatever, but EVs are a status and signaling thing…

> For the same price, you can get a nicer ICE.

That is your opinion, which you’re of course entitled to. My Teslas are, to me, the best cars I could buy. That’s value. I’m looking forward to my Cybertruck as well.

Ok. And I think being able to fill up at a gas station in 5 minutes is one of the most critical features a car can have. Most drivers agree.

The point of EVs for the time being is minimizing inconveniences (charging) and maximizing intangible value (virtue signaling, being “the life of the party” with your built in cooler/outlets, having a futurist interior with a bad but polished infotainment panel, etc etc).

Elon is cratering one of those things rn and it does feel like a Howard Hughes moment. Hey maybe there’s something about launching satellites! Who knows!

> Ok. And I think being able to fill up at a gas station in 5 minutes is one of the most critical features a car can have. Most drivers agree.

Please provide a citation to prove this assertion. You’re parroting your opinion as a broadly held belief.

If only the world were made up of more free thinking people like you. Seems like these days everything has to fit into either a blue or red box. Ugh.

What are your thoughts on countries sanctioning Russia

Less effective than strikes on Russian infrastructure and military personnel. If collective oil price ceilings and similar economic sanctions make some feel better, proceed, it costs very little to do so. Most unfortunately, peace is arrived at through superior firepower.

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-making-excuses-for-no...

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/12/15/u-s-eyes-new-weapon...