But there are actual victims of this cultural diversity, and cultural imperialism which destroys such cultures as have victims would be strongly preferable to the continued existence of such cultures.
If a culture is okay with that maybe it's okay to want to nudge that culture to change.
I think the correct course of action would be to "tax the shit out of that" too. (Just as with all the other stuff mentioned in the comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34172394)
But of course it's never the right time to do that, as currently half the EU is trying to suck their dick for a bit more natural gas. :/
Not all cultures are equal.
Ending slavery isn't controversial. Western notions of equity are, in both gross and subtle ways.
If I:
- work harder than you;
- have greater aptitude;
- have richer, more educated parents;
- have better / more culturally-aligned social skills;
- have a wealthier social network;
- have higher test scores / university pedigree;
- have better ethics; and / or
- am more ambitious, greedy, and motivated than you
What should are relative outcomes be? Cultures differ here. Some would like more equal outcomes. Some would like more meritocratic outcomes (for different definitions of 'merit'). Some would like more laissez faire / libertarian / freedom-oriented outcomes (e.g. preservation of property rights).
That's okay. I'm not a cultural relativist on ending slavery. I do respect diversity on concepts like what "equity" means.
I think narrow, targeted interventions could work well around slavery, but would break down the instant those were perceived to touch on LGBTQ, women's rights, religion, equity, or a swarm of other issues around values. On the other hand, omitting at least a few of those, I'm unlikely to make headway in the West. That's not to mention economic / corporate issues, like IP rights.
Of course it isn't. What is not obvious is what replaces it that isn't de facto slavery or even reduces opportunities for people so that they are exploited elsewhere. Nor how the replacement is monitored for effectiveness and compliance.
It is easy to say that slavery is bad and make it illegal. Fixing the actual problems in monarchies/dictatorships and impoverished countries with little opportunity is not easy or simple. The fact that a lot of slaves are not technically slaves but officially and legally "employed" makes the issue pretty plain to see. How do you see the solution to compliance in Middle Eastern monarchies and even in Western democracies where it is already illegal but happens none the less? I assume you are going to go out and implement these right away if it is so easy and obvious.
You are looking for equitable solutions in places that explicitly do not value them. Improving that is hard, if it is not already obvious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery
Another good starting point is prestige and how it impacts perceptions of individuals involved.
A lot of the framing in this discussion carry a lot of Western baggage which is likely to rub people the wrong way in the Middle East.
I can think of several solutions which I think could at least be more effective than what the West is doing; I do think there is room for prestige projects here. I'm not sure how helpful that would be, since in terms of "implementing," I don't know any Saudi royalty. Do you?
Are you okay destroying US culture? Or are you an apologist for our racist justice system?
Would, as you put it "cultural imperialism which destroys such cultures as have victims would be strongly preferable to the continued existence of such cultures" in the context of Western culture?
See what I did there? If the point I tried to make above isn't clear:
* The point isn't to say slavery is okay -- it's obviously not -- but a lot of stuff in every culture is not okay.
* A lot of other stuff in every culture is not okay as perceived by other cultures (especially around sex, gender, and religion), but comes down to values.
* And a lot of other stuff is beautiful, unique, and good.
Western cultural imperialist interventions haven't worked out well in the past. I'm glad to write more about that too. Even if you -- as most of these comments seem to -- believe that Western culture is superior, culturally imperialist interventions haven't led to the outcome you want.
What interventions are you proposing, and why would you believe they would work any better here?
I think you’re spot on that we in the West find “step above slavery jobs” extremely distasteful. This results in situations where the news media celebrates the closing of a “child sweatshop” in Cambodia, but the cameras aren’t rolling when, faced with poor economic conditions due to the factory closing, those same children are now working in a child brothel, which everyone agrees is worse.
Similarly, Siddharth Kara has recently revealed the horrors going on in the Congo involving the Cobalt trade with the warlords and the Chinese. That ones interesting too because thirty years ago the operations were run by South Africans but the western world largely agreed this was wrong so they ceded the land back to the Congo. This resulted in warlords becoming enriched by the power vacuum and becoming well armed and making things horrific for the poor people living in Congo who have to mine up toxic cobalt with their bare hands in dangerous tunnels and pits.
This is a coordination problem first and foremost. The solution is to tax the shit out of supply chains that don't provide the basics.
...
And yes, development economics is ugly. There's no royal road from subsistence farming to Switzerland-level, but whatever road there is it's not composed of separately inscrutable steps. It's perfectly okay to strive to make each step better and less horrible.
cf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjMPJVmXxV8
Not everyone has The Comedy Store stage to relieve their depression.
I'd suggest investing research time proportionate to the weight of your opinions.
It’s that sort of thought pattern that allows the mob to justify its behaviour.
Getting “cancelled” causes real world harm. Imagine losing your job, being too toxic to find work elsewhere, being unable to pay your mortgage, being unable to keep a roof over your family’s head.
You obviously sympathize with the mob destroying people's lives to trivialize the effects like this.
1) Transferring money between crypto exchanges and regulated financial institutions in ways that trip fraud or AML detection measures leading to closed accounts
2) Actions against one or more social media accounts in reaction to content this individual has posted or shared
People love to act like one social media post against the "mainstream" is potentially life destroying but there's yet to be an actual example of that. Just loud jerks being loud jerks and getting mad when told to leave the party.
There are places I'm willing to stick my neck out, and there are places I'm not. Each of these is an ROI calculation.
This just means you’re getting information from unreliable sources. “Cancelled” sounds like you’ll be unemployable but 99% of the time it means someone said something insulting, some people criticized them, and they had no significant consequences. The American and English right-wing like to talk like cancellation is a real problem because it’s both an effective marketing tool (notice how often complaints about being cancelled are delivered in for-profit books and media by people making upper-class incomes from it) and as a proactive defense against criticism.
A lot of Western solutions sound like variants of Simpson's Paradox, where equity is increased locally, and decreased globally.
This is, for example, true if one provides people with a better-but-not-good-enough option. If I do something not meeting Western standards, I'm liable to get cancelled. On the other hand, many options a step up from slavery are just that: a step up from slavery, and would be considered very exploitative by Western standards. Sustainability matters for scalability.
Likewise, cultural imperialism is bad, and a lot of options do a lot more (distributed) harm while helping individuals. I like cultural diversity.
Options also need to stakeholders and implementation. It's easy to say "If I were dictator of the world, I would do X," but they do need to content with incentive structures, politics, and similar types of issues.
I'm not quite sure how to even have that discussion, since if something can be misinterpreted, you're liable to be cancelled (or at the very least, receive some very bad press).