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Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by SoftTalker on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:59PM (#34151482)
Southwest is a "discount" airline. They do many things to economize, i.e. no assigned seats, they only fly 737s so they don't need to certify pilots or mechanics on any other types, you can only book with them and not with Expedia etc.

It would not surprise me that their back-office operations are likewise economized and some things are just not done because "they can never happen."

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by AlotOfReading on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @01:40PM (#34152046)
All airlines economize. An airline that doesn't is a bankrupt airline because typical industry margins on flight are razor thin.

Southwest isn't a particularly budget airline compared to modern budget carriers like spirit and ryanair that haven't copied the open boarding policy. I suspect the opportunity to upsell seats / luggage and have distinct classes outweighs the turnaround time costs of assigned seating.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by mason55 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @01:22PM (#34151809)
> It would not surprise me that their back-office operations are likewise economized and some things are just not done because "they can never happen."

Meh, it doesn't even have to be "never". It just has to be cost multiplied by frequency is less than the cost to prepare.

If they lose $100m every five years due to a system failure, and it would cost $30m/year to plan for those failures, they it's just cheaper to let it happen.

And I don't mean this in a judgmental, Fight Club-car recall speech kind of way. It's just business reality. At some point every business has to decide that the cost of planning for something is higher than the cost of letting it happen.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by e_y_ on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:13PM (#34152519)
What's the value of the reputation risk of a major, very high profile failure?

Sometimes businesses end up on the wrong side of that bet. They see only the costs but not the benefits of preparedness (by the time it fails, there will probably be a different CEO in charge) and make a bad call.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by mason55 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:43PM (#34152843)
Of course, no argument there. Ideally when you make that kind of decision you take reputational risk into account, as well as, like, is this an existential risk?

The airline industry feels like one where each year it's a different carrier who has some catastrophic scheduling failure. Today, everyone says they're never flying Southwest again. But if you fly semi-regularly then it won't take very long before you don't have any airlines left to fly on.

For people who weren't affected, I doubt very many are even going to remember this. Personally, I remember that this kind of thing has happened recently with other carriers but I couldn't even tell you who.

And people who were affected can mostly be bought off if you need to. Some vouchers & hotel reimbursement and it's just the cost of doing business.

Plus, the airline industry has proven over and over that people are willing to put up with a lot when you have the cheapest prices.

It's different from an industry that's built on reputation and trust. Like, a password manager, the only real thing you're selling is your reputation. Losing trust is a real existential threat. Security costs need to be in the bucket of either "yes, we will do it" or "it's so expensive that if we do it then we don't have a business anyway, so we'll skip it and pray."

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by hattmall on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @03:38PM (#34153474)
Scheduling won't ruin an airlines reputation. Crashing the planes is what ruins an airline. Southwest has only ever had two passenger deaths and one of those was an attempted hijacker beaten to death by other passengers.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by khuey on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @04:36PM (#34154186)
Eh, to a first approximation the FAA won't let you crash the planes. It's been 13 years since there was a fatal plane crash on a US passenger airline.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by variant on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @08:47PM (#34156528)
FAA has an important role, but market forces won't tolerate an airline that experiences crashes, even rare ones. Airlines are highly incented to be safe, both by regulation and by the market itself.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by variant on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @08:43PM (#34156502)
How badly did SWA's past high profile failures affect them? I'd say not so very much. Yes, some short term damage, but we're talking about an industry where no one stands out from a quality perspective. Everyone is seen as some degree of bad, much like big ISP's. People are used to rotating between airlines and, while those affected this round may shift away, others will get frustrated with their preferred carrier and rotate to Southwest.

I think reputation impacts in this industry from anything other than crashes don't hold much staying power.

I'm actually quite tempted to buy the SWA dip...

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by LarryMullins on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @01:54PM (#34152272)
> Southwest is a "discount" airline.

They're also the "friendly airline", they easily have the most personable and friendly staff. I don't know what they do different, but Southwest employees treat me human and all the rest generally treat me like human trash. It's got to be a company culture thing, maybe connected to Southwest not having a first-class section.

Usually I fly with Southwest whenever possible without thinking twice about it, but this outage and the outage last year are forcing me to reconsider. Better to deal with rude people than to have my flight delayed..

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by dkarl on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @04:13PM (#34153880)
Yep, the other airlines are in the business of selling "class" and "status," and it's part of their product differentiation strategy to treat you according to how much you pay.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by midoridensha on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @08:32PM (#34156420)
>I don't know what they do different, but Southwest employees treat me human and all the rest generally treat me like human trash. It's got to be a company culture thing

Definitely. Normal American customer service is to treat you like human trash, so obviously Southwest has decided to do this differently and so probably does things like only hiring friendly people, training them to be friendly and positive even in difficult situations, and checking on them somehow to make sure they're doing this and not just faking it for the interview and training. Other airlines obviously don't, but it's not just airlines, it's everywhere in American customer-facing business these days. Rudeness is just a normal part of America culture now.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by indymike on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @09:35PM (#34156883)
> Rudeness is just a normal part of America culture now.

I have a backpack that has a phone holder on the shoulder strap. When you click your phone in it, the camera is visible. I've had many a situation where someone was about to go full New York on me, but noticed the camera staring at them and toned it down. I've never once been recording.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by midoridensha on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @09:37PM (#34156897)
Very interesting. I should look for a backpack like this, so I can be prepared the next time I travel to America.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by clolege on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @07:09AM (#34160213)
What kind of backpack do you have?
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by indymike on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @11:56AM (#34162955)
It's an Orben with a cheap iphone belt holder clipped into the cargo loop on the strap. The belt holder came with the clear protective case I bought at Wal-Mart. I hung the belt hodlder on the strap and it's been great for recording short hikes and downtown excursions. But also, seems to have the effect of making people more polite at customer service counters.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by inferiorhuman on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @09:19AM (#34161174)

  training them to be friendly and positive even in difficult situations
Without having any insight into how Southwest runs things I'd venture to guess that their gate agents and cabin crew have a lot more discretion than their peers at, for example, United. That kind of leeway makes the job much, much easier. United essentially handcuffed their staff leaving few options for dealing with an overbooked flight but to escalate to police involvement.

That's what happened with Dr. Dao in any case. Not long after that shit show, I booked a transcon on American. Turns out it was overbooked, and they were desperate to get people off the plane. The gate agents basically asked how much money it would take to get people to volunteer to take another flight. They got their volunteers, everyone went home happy because American empowered their staff to resolve problems.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by icelancer on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @09:21PM (#34156786)
Delta has been more than fine with me. Granted, I'm a Diamond class member now, but even on the way up they were reasonable and provided mostly good service.

United is awful. American isn't much better.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by WWLink on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @10:40PM (#34157271)
Southwest also has pretty good size seats, afaik, relative to other airlines' economy seat size. Plus the whole "you're all the same so we treat you all the same" thing is nice. I do wish there was an international equivalent.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by inferiorhuman on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @09:08AM (#34161068)
A lot of people lay responsibility for Southwest's reputation for customer service at Herb's feet. Personally I found their front line staff to be casual to the point that it bordered on unprofessional (which is something coming from someone allergic to formality), but I'd absolutely believe that much of their positive reputation came from the top. Southwest pilots though, yikes.

With the exception of United I'd say most airlines I've dealt with have been pleasant whether or not I'm flying up front or have status. Yes, even RyanAir. We're in something of a golden age since (with the notable exception of Southwest) American airlines have mostly put their mergers behind them and have mostly shed themselves of CEOs who view employees as adversaries. Take a look at the bad old days of the late 80s through mid 2000s. Smisek. Lorenzo. Parker. Bastards and crooks, all of them. It's difficult to stress just how toxic airline leadership was and how that trickled down for a long time.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by thomasjudge on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @03:45PM (#34153547)
Just as a note: they are about to issue a $458M dividend. They plan to spend $4-4.5B in 2023 on planes. How much are they spending on system modernization?
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by namdnay on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @04:29PM (#34154100)
> How much are they spending on system modernization

A fortune, they only just finished an 8-year migration to Amadeus