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Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by InTheArena on Monday December 26, 2022 @08:12PM (#34143798)
As someone who studied American history, this point of view always irks me a little bit. The reality of it is that all of the assumptions that America would have lost without French support is trying to prove a counterfactual. There are a lot of reasons to think that it would not have been so. Every southern campaign that the British had tried to pull off was a disaster. The cost to the British crown of maintaining and continuing the war was ruinous. there were many near disasters that the British just barely avoided. Washington’s position at Monmouth was set up to be decisive and Lee’s disaster out commands there played a huge role in continuing the war. Cowpens and Kings Mountain denied the British their different strategic goals. Knox managed to trap the British under the threat of guns at Boston and it was considered a miracle at the time that the British were able to evacuate to Canada. Their luck ran out at Yorktown.

Furthermore, Washington understood what most of his contemporaries did not. Simply by having an army in the Field, he denied legitimacy to the British. Washington and his generals laid out strategies that would one by one eliminate British armies in the field. To borrow a concept from the navy theoreticians Washington had an army in being. The British could not achieve their goals without the utter destruction of Washington’s army and could not maintain the armies for long periods of time.

At the same time, political will to continue the war would eventually run out for the British. They only had one weight to win, and very many ways to lose. The fact that it was Yorktown and not Monmouth has to do with the differences between Lafayette and Charles Lee.

But let’s ignore all of that - I think at some point the colonies would have gone down the same path that the French eventually went down - a levee en masse. I suspect running into a large well armed colonial mass conscription army would have ended things very quickly.

Anyways - the French are important to the story - but it’s like claiming that American won World War I.

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by Waterluvian on Monday December 26, 2022 @09:14PM (#34144231)
If I may, I feel a bit irked that we often see these outcomes as binary. Wouldn’t the absence of French involvement be likely to have caused a considerable change in social, political, and economic landscape, regardless of who ultimately “won”?

I’ve been thinking about how different paces to the Ukraine war’s culmination (eg. we increase support by 10x tomorrow) could have significant impacts on future attitudes and behaviours of all actors, especially Russia.

I am not a professional student of history and I really don’t know this war all that well, but as an audience of the future, isn’t “what were the conditions of victory?” no less important than “who won?”

I might be making no sense…

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by ericmay on Monday December 26, 2022 @10:22PM (#34144635)
I’m not sure lack of French support would have made a difference with how we understand America today assuming the Americans had still won, but had the British won, frankly, I think the US would have been better off in many respects.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by jongjong on Monday December 26, 2022 @10:57PM (#34144928)
The US would not have been anywhere near as successful financially and its population size would probably only have been a fraction of what it is today.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by Larrikin on Monday December 26, 2022 @11:25PM (#34145096)
Would slavery have ended sooner or later if the British had won?
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by 082349872349872 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @01:39AM (#34145878)
Sooner, and perhaps more importantly, without all the violence.

cf https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33931615

(incidentally, I find the timing of the Monroe Doctrine slightly suspicious, coming as it does from a slave-holding President a few years after the Vienna Convention includes an agreement [as moral imperative] to abolish the slave trade)

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by ericmay on Monday December 26, 2022 @11:13PM (#34145034)
Yea maybe. Interesting to think about. Pros/cons.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by ngc248 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:23AM (#34146159)
>>> but had the British won, frankly, I think the US would have been better off in many respects.

Hard disagree here, I am from a former british colony, where the laws etc are still inspired by the british. The American constitution and political and legal system with its checks and balances is outright better than the british system. Of course its not perfect, but its still miles better. So its good that the rebels won and the british lost.

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by watwut on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @04:54AM (#34147190)
I dunno, American system seems to be in capture by minority party and also has track record of disenfranchising large part of population. Plus, juridical system underperformed in Amrica, due to very little checks or balances on cops and prosecutors. They also imprison impressive amount of population.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by JetSetWilly on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @06:22AM (#34147714)
Globally, countries with presidential systems are much more likely to devolve into dictatorships than those with british-inspired parliamentary systems.

There's pros and cons to each system of course. The American "checks and balances" results in complete inability to act a lot of the time. See the frequent budget shutdowns, or compare and contrast the ability to legislate for issues like "maniacs are shooting up our schools".

The downside of course is that the great "freedom of action" of a british government can result in self harming or ill considered policies being rail roaded through. See something like brexit: it is doubtful that many countries with "checks and balances" would be able to muster the political will and broad agreement to do it in the first place. But a british government can just go YOLO.

I think a parliamentary system is better despite this because it puts the establishment in control. To become PM, you have to climb to the top of a party first (which requires many years of dedication). Some war hero, billionaire, or other radical can't just waltz into the position from nowhere. And then a PM is at all times beholden to the support of their party, which can be removed at any time if they turn out to be an idiot (see truss - nobody had to put up with her for 4 years).

The danger in britain is the move to more "democracy" in choosing PMs. If it were left to the establishment (ie MPs) things are more boring. But when it is "democratised" to party members that's when the crazies come in - the corbyns and trusses. This is an unfortunate decline of elite control in Britain which hopefully will be rolled back now that everyone has seen the unintended consequences.

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by Mikeb85 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:46AM (#34146285)
Not a chance. You can simply look at Canada and Australia to see how it might have played out... It's a difference in culture and attitude but we (Can & Aus) don't innovate, don't create, don't have the "American Dream" and in Canada we're getting dragged along by the US but still far worse on almost every economic metric.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by mattrp on Monday December 26, 2022 @11:26PM (#34145101)
Agreed - I think the complacency of the British generals and they utter lack of interest in anything beyond the Delaware River almost makes one think that maybe the British generals in New York were not all that interested in decisive victory. At the same time I think it’s often lost on many that had the Americans not convinced the French to act at the very precise moment they did, they would have never received aid for the French government ceased to exist by 1789, the very year in which the American revolution concluded.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by Nomentatus on Monday December 26, 2022 @11:46PM (#34145203)
It's a maxim that guerrilla wars succeed with a lot of external help and supply, if they succeed at all, throughout history. That's fact. The French were financial supporters from before the shooting began; and supplied high tech gunpowder that meant that from the start the colonists' muskets had significantly more range, no small thing. Without France, nothing. The French ended up bankrupting the state due to extreme overspending on the Americans' war, and sliding into revolution themselves. (Although weather wrecking crops after the eruption of an Icelandic volcano was a large factor as well.) The Americans deserve great credit, but they owe tremendous debts of gratitude, too.

Washington had to keep British costs high while not losing, he couldn't just sit.

Mass conscription is difficult if you can't pay or properly feed or clothe the army you have and a big portion of your own population opposed to you.

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by odd_perfect_num on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:49AM (#34145556)
The American Revolution was not a Guerilla war. It was primarily fought with pitched battles between opposing armies. This was the case from the first shots (at Lexington, and subsequently Concord and Bunker Hill) to the last at Yorktown.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by Nomentatus on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:40AM (#34146246)
It did not begin as a guerrilla war, true; but the abject failure of that initial effort made it clear to Washington that the war had to continue as an irregular war without set front lines or attempts to directly take back New York or Boston. Guerrilla wars can have large battles, but do not have established, continuing and continuous front lines. Mao's troops now and then held large battles with the Japanese (and KMT), once by choice - but his armies nearly always fought as guerillas and were far more successful in that role.

Perhaps the American revolution isn't as obvious a case because the Brits tended to turtle a lot; not trying to demonstrate that they were in control of nearly the whole place and so providing a plethora of targets (unlike the Japanese, say.)

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by philwelch on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @03:34AM (#34146636)
I think the notion of "established, continuing, and continuous front line" is anachronistic to the Revolutionary War in any case. As late as the American Civil War, an army could freely roam through the enemy countryside with relative impunity until a defending army caught up with them, as happened at Antietam and Gettysburg; there was no "front line" to punch through.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by Nomentatus on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @07:46PM (#34156028)
The US is large, true. More a matter of control points, such as Harper's Ferry. That's where Lee had to punch through to get to Antietam, in 1862, for example. https://www.nps.gov/hafe/learn/historyculture/1862-battle-of...

But I haven't asserted that all regular wars have front lines all the time. Just that guerrilla wars don't.

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by philwelch on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:10AM (#34173361)
I don’t think this phenomenon is specific to the US, but to the era. I’m just not quite as familiar with e.g. the Napoleonic Wars.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by zhdc1 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @04:37AM (#34147077)
> It's a maxim that guerrilla wars succeed with a lot of external help and supply, if they succeed at all,

Not true. Show me where in "On Guerrilla Warfare" Zedong - an expert on the American and French Revolutions - claims that guerrilla warfare requires external support.

Guerrilla warfare requires the support of the population (pretty much all US IW joint doctrine highlights this).

Economic power facilitates guerrilla warfare, along with the transition to traditional warfare, but it isn't a requirement.

> Washington had to keep British costs high while not losing, he couldn't just sit.

The only thing Washington had to do was survive.

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by hef19898 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @05:08AM (#34147285)
Considering how much suppory the Chinese gave to North Vietnam, I assume he knew how important support from third parties is.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by Nomentatus on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @07:47PM (#34156039)
Indeed, he'd had plenty himself from the USSR.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by Nomentatus on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @07:55PM (#34156111)
Mao received oodles of support from the USSR, the Long March was the Reds fleeing northward to where they could still get that support, and then being able to punch further East.

The KMT was also a revolutionary force (against foreign domination), and initially preferred by Moscow for practical reasons - the USSR would at that time only support a joint command.

Mao became leader of the Reds because USSR's contact defected to Mao from the previous general so the money etc had to go to Mao, the only point of contact the USSR then had with the Reds.

Post WWII Soviet support, esp military material support became very large indeed, allowing the Reds to crush the KMT.

Mao spent plenty of time and effort downplaying everything the USSR had done for him and in massive spats with the USSR, for his own political reasons. Just as Lenin didn't credit the massive support the Germans had given him, to undermine the Czar.

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by chasil on Monday December 26, 2022 @11:53PM (#34145231)
Washington lost most, if not all of the major battles that he fought.

His opponent, General Howe, obviously had sympathy for the American cause, as he stayed the hand of destruction many times.

It was only when General Nathaniel Green was unleashed that victory favored us, ripping Tarlelton and Cornwallis' forces to tatters, giving us Yorktown.

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by odd_perfect_num on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:59AM (#34145636)
>> if not all

Pardon? He forced the British to vacate Boston, and won decisive victories at Trenton and Yorktown. His worst defeats were delaying actions around NYC, where, in each case, he withdrew in good form.

I would attribute Howe's failures to incompetence rather than treason.

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by pyuser583 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:39AM (#34145486)
I’ve heard that due to the militia system, an insanely large number of Americans participated in the revolution.

Much higher than the conscript armies of the 20th century - possibly as high as 13%. That’s greater mobilization than in WWII.

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by sofixa on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:37AM (#34146232)
> Much higher than the conscript armies of the 20th century - possibly as high as 13%

Considering it was as high as 80% of military aged men for Germany and France, with a few other countries in the 50-70% range, why do you think 13%, even if you mean from the whole population, is higher?

Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by atdrummond on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:55AM (#34146336)
I think they mean conscript armies of the US.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by pyuser583 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @08:23PM (#34180494)
The 13% is of total population. Not just military aged men. That could easily be 50-80% military aged men.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by WeylandYutani on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @06:45AM (#34147848)
The Revolutionary war reminds me a lot of modern insurgencies in Vietnam and Afghanistan. It wasn't won on the battlefield it was won in secret backroom deals that made sure the supplies and money kept flowing in.
Re:The Tipping Point: How France Changed the Tides of the Am... by panick21_ on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @11:59AM (#34150587)
Saying Britain didnt have the money is ignoring that the US was far worse possitioned in terms of money.