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Re:Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth i... by eternalban on Monday December 26, 2022 @11:14AM (#34138893)
I honestly wonder if the native Americans were (destined to be) screwed even before Europeans set foot in Americas. They were behind a formidable technology curve and I truly wonder would they have fared better if Japanese or Russian (or possibly even Chinese) colonists (the closest geographic candidate colonists) showed up.

Consider it as a thought experiment - something that's been popping in my head lately:

under what sort of ideal conditions would have the native civilizations and peoples of Americas been left unmolested by anyone? An entire continent left in isolation while the more technologically advanced societies reached the way station of 'universal human rights'?

[typically don't mention downvotes but a difficult question does not merit it. If you so strongly disagree, discuss it.]

Re:Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth i... by neither_color on Monday December 26, 2022 @11:24AM (#34139008)
The Russians did explore Alaska and interact with natives, but all they did was set up some missionary and trade posts. China explored Africa and then became isolationist. Japan was always isolationist until forced to open up by the US.
Re:Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth i... by wpietri on Monday December 26, 2022 @11:31AM (#34139103)
And not just Alaska, but California as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_North_...
Re:Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth i... by eternalban on Monday December 26, 2022 @11:44AM (#34139275)
Russians had to pass through the Caucausus and Steppes before they reached Alaska.

https://www.international.ucla.edu/apc/centralasia/article/1...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_Nogai_Uprising

https://fountainmagazine.com/1993/issue-2-april-june-1993/th...

(The Chinese are in the clear imo, so I parenthesized them.)

Re:Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth i... by mynameishere on Monday December 26, 2022 @11:21AM (#34138975)
If migration from Europe (and I suppose Africa) hadn't been unrelenting, then the natives would have gradually built up a modern-ish, defendable civilization. Maybe. It would have required some centralization of government as well, to prevent the divide-and-conquer tactics used against them.
Re:Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth i... by eternalban on Monday December 26, 2022 @11:32AM (#34139132)
Right, the question is precisely this: who would leave the juicy morsel of Americas on the table in the 15th-20th century historic range. The means and processes may possibly vary.

Just to be clear, even today in 21st you will note there are many global actors that deny the very notion of a "universal human rights". I'm not European myself and definitely not defending what happened. But it seems to me that what happened is an (inevitable) accident of history: two worlds that evolved in effective isolation for thousands of years. And I wonder: which of the relatively advanced societies would have left them in peace so they could catch up and integrate as you propose?

Re:Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth i... by katbyte on Monday December 26, 2022 @12:01PM (#34139441)
What happened to natives in America was anything but an accident https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY
Re:Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth i... by dinkumthinkum on Monday December 26, 2022 @05:17PM (#34142520)
I think you are not aware of the way the word “accident” is used here, or you are using its misinterpretation as a jumping off point.
Re:Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth i... by dinkumthinkum on Monday December 26, 2022 @05:15PM (#34142501)
Is that serious? Behind the technology curve is a massive understatement. They were thousands of years behind in nearly every area of development.
Re:Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth i... by j-krieger on Monday December 26, 2022 @05:52PM (#34142825)
I wonder if the massive riches of nature they had for a low amount of people played a role in this
Re:Thousands trapped on Pine Ridge burn clothes for warmth i... by eternalban on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:30PM (#34152689)
I think Yuval Noah Harari would agree with you. You may find his book Sapiens of interest.

-

The point you raise touches directly on the essence of my original comment (which should have been clearer):

When we think of the value-system matrix of the 3 co-evolving continents of Europe, Africa, and Asia, the core commonality that is specially distinct from the value-system matrix that evolved in Americas is in regards to notions of property and nature 'husbandry'.

Any vanguard explorers from the Eurasian civilisational matrix would bring with them the entirely alien notions of property and systemic cultivation of nature, and that would inevitably result in a confrontation of value systems, in which the technologically superior side would dominate.