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Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by kevin_thibedeau on Saturday December 24, 2022 @05:33PM (#34121826)
Cold air is denser. Pushing it out of the way saps more energy and drops the effective work done. You're oblivious to it because a motor vehicle has so much available power on tap. It is very noticeable on a bicycle at high speeds.

Conversely. Sailboats get more efficient in cold temperatures because more energy is imparted on the sail.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by scott_siskind on Saturday December 24, 2022 @05:45PM (#34121928)
> It is very noticeable on a bicycle at high speeds

Huh? I've been cycling for 15 years, many of those years doing 15k km a year, all year round. Mountain biking on mountains at -15C, down to urban cycling in 38-40C scorching summer heat. I've never noticed speed, effort, stamina changing with temperature as you suggest.

And I've done lots of road cycling at constant 35-40km/h, descents of up to 70+km/h.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by pastage on Saturday December 24, 2022 @06:28PM (#34122305)
I am not really contradicting you here. Just want clarification from GP. My reaction was Huh? As well.

With N=15 years of gps data and 40-70 of those days per year below zero very few below -10°C. I can say that I ride slower on cold days on avarage.

I am not fit and do not track that at all. I can barely keep my avarage above 25km/h in city traffic for 15km, very few conflict points maybe twenty but not comparable to road cycling. So a km/h decrease of avarage speed during winter is common but not a given. I do not count bad road conditions, but Stockholm has really good maintanance during winter, ice free asphalt all year.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by LargoLasskhyfv on Saturday December 24, 2022 @09:01PM (#34123327)
More wind chill? More weight by thicker clothing?
Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by pastage on Sunday December 25, 2022 @03:11AM (#34125337)
I ride with heavy loads, 10+ kilos is common, no stats on that though. For my speed it does not matter much with 2 kg clothes.
Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by Lio on Saturday December 24, 2022 @10:26PM (#34123892)
I definitely ride slower in winter too but I always assumed that was due to my body having a harder time in the cold rather than air density changes.

That seems to be born out by using better (read more expensive) winter riding gear. I naturally run a bit cold so spending on low temperature tights, base layer and jersey/jacket has made a massive difference for me.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by kevin_thibedeau on Saturday December 24, 2022 @06:20PM (#34122223)
Track your time on a consistent route on paved, snow free roads. I guarantee you'll see a dip in winter.

Scorching heat with high humidity has an opposite effect. H2O drops the density of air and you can go measurably faster than in drier air.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by bennyelv on Sunday December 25, 2022 @03:22AM (#34125380)
Interesting! I’m also a long time high volume cyclist, and I see a clear effect of slower rides in winter. I’m talking about around specific routes and training sessions where the point is to go as fast as possible. With the same power I seem to go more slowly when it’s cold.

Obviously there could be many reasons for this: less aerodynamic clothing, more cautious cornering etc etc, but the effect is very noticeable to me.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by eldaisfish on Saturday December 24, 2022 @06:09PM (#34122110)
this is the textbook definition of confidently incorrect.

Winter fuel efficiency is worse because of a winter fuel mix, not because of air density.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by dgacmu on Saturday December 24, 2022 @09:51PM (#34123665)
And if you don't pump up your tires to compensate, the lower pressure from cold temps will increase your rolling resistance. Not a 40% drop but enough to notice if you're tracking mpg.
Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by bumby on Saturday December 24, 2022 @06:12PM (#34122144)
>Cold air is denser. Pushing it out of the way saps more energy

ICE mpg tends to drop in cold weather, but this isn’t why. It’s usually because it takes longer to reach optimal operating temp or due to changes in fuel composition. Cold air can produce more drag but that problem exists irrespective of ICE or EV.

The pumping efficiency is unaffected as any losses on the exhaust side will be offset by increased pressure on the intake side.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by trentgreene on Saturday December 24, 2022 @06:17PM (#34122187)
Hmm, I wonder if the increased resistance is overcome by the fact that ICEs can put out more power with colder denser oxygen rich air.

This is why performance cars sport cold air intakes. This is also why your car won’t hit its quoted 0-60 time in a warmer environment — those tests are normally performed or normalized to cold air conditions + 0% humidity. Just what counts as cold depends on manufacturer / reviewer.

Anecdotally, I track efficiency and drive consistent routes, and don’t notice a diff.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by bumby on Saturday December 24, 2022 @06:29PM (#34122313)
I wonder if the increased resistance is overcome by the fact that ICEs can put out more power with colder denser oxygen rich air.

Not likely, as an increase in air is going to be accompanied by a corresponding increase in fuel. Unless your fuel mapping is all messed up, it will give you more power, but not likely better fuel economy.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by Manuel_D on Saturday December 24, 2022 @06:31PM (#34122331)
Colder air's increased density and bigger temperature gradient also improves the efficiency of internal combustion engines.

Increased rolling resistance from displacing snow is a far bigger cause of winter driving inefficiency.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by Gordonjcp on Saturday December 24, 2022 @06:39PM (#34122384)
> Cold air is denser. Pushing it out of the way saps more energy and drops the effective work done.

That makes absolutely no difference at all.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by sokoloff on Saturday December 24, 2022 @07:25PM (#34122711)
> That makes absolutely no difference at all.

That would be very surprising if it were true, given the very large effect density altitude has on airplane performance (engine and wing).

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by maxerickson on Saturday December 24, 2022 @09:14PM (#34123403)
It's gonna make some difference, but air resistance goes with square of speed and the change in density due to temperature isn't that large.
Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by sokoloff on Saturday December 24, 2022 @09:36PM (#34123557)
It’s about -3% change in drag force per +10°C change in temp.
Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by maxerickson on Saturday December 24, 2022 @09:58PM (#34123703)
Which is like the same as 60 mph vs 59 mph.
Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by sokoloff on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:45AM (#34127630)
In drag force, yes, but in this case, you are taking the 3% penalty and aren't getting the partially offsetting 1.7% increase in distance per unit time that 60 gives you over 59.

Note that it's 3% per 10°C delta so, for a 40°C swing (say 30°C/86°F summer to -10°C/14°F winter), that's a 12% difference in aero drag force.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by Gordonjcp on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:11AM (#34125871)
Which is basically nothing.

Opening your window makes far more of a difference.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by Gordonjcp on Sunday December 25, 2022 @05:11AM (#34125868)
Over what sort of range of height and pressure?

It's just about observable with very light and very aerodynamic aircraft at ground level if you can get them cold enough.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by sokoloff on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:17AM (#34127405)
It's well beyond "just about observable". Here's a sample landing distance performance chart: https://www.ascentgroundschool.com/~ascentgr/images/ct80802e...

At -10°C/14°F, with no other adjustments, in the hands of a test pilot, that aircraft will have a ground roll of around 1000' and clear a 50' obstacle and come to a stop in around 1500'.

At 30°C/86°F, with no other adjustments, in the hands of a test pilot, that aircraft will have a ground roll of around 1150' and clear a 50' obstacle and come to a stop in around 1750'.

Flying in and out of 2000'-2500' strips with trees, it's impossible to not notice the performance difference with temperature. Perhaps the people who can't notice those differences don't fly into anything other than very long runways.

Re:The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter by thaumasiotes on Saturday December 24, 2022 @08:01PM (#34122938)
> You're oblivious to it because a motor vehicle has so much available power on tap.

Dropping from 18 mpg to 10 mpg would increase your cost of fuel by 80%. It'd be hard to be oblivious to it.