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Re:The Magna Carta Essay by InclinedPlane on Friday December 30, 2011 @05:27PM (#3409347)
I can't imagine in what world plagiarism in college should be treated as some private affair that should be kept secret.

College students are adults. Plagiarism in order to achieve a college degree fraudulently is worthy of public attention.

Edit: note, "public attention" != "mob of ruthless assholes destroying someone's life".

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by raganwald on Friday December 30, 2011 @05:54PM (#3409458)
There is a difference between:

1. This alleged plagiarist’s college convicting him and publicizing the fact that he has been judged a plagiarist by due process, and: 2. A public accusation of plagiarism without process of any kind.

Public attention to a conviction is entirely different from public attention to an accusation. I’m with you if you want convictions by due process of plagiarism in college to be worthy of public attention. I am not in favour of accusations like this to be brandished so enthusiastically.

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by InclinedPlane on Friday December 30, 2011 @06:37PM (#3409556)
Certainly there is a continuum in such matters. Some accusations deserve to be kept out of the public eyes. But I don't think it's at all reasonable to imagine that we can, or should, live in a world where all of our shames are private and outed only through a laborious and secretive trial process.

The flaws of the "court of opinion" are many and worthy of concern, but they shouldn't be used as an excuse to hide any mention of blatant wrong-doing.

This essay isn't a public denouncement, it's merely presenting information. Is this a call to a lynching? "Aaron Kerzner of Boston, I blow my nose at you."

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by raganwald on Friday December 30, 2011 @07:01PM (#3409609)
Yes, I agree with you again. The author of this post is just one person. I am not saying whether he should or shouldn’t name this person or link to a web page that appears to be an essay submitted as part of course work.

I am only speaking to what we should do in response, namely laugh uproariously at what appears to be a finely crafted piece of work, and use it as a catalysts for serious discussion about where our institutions of higher education are failing, and eschew debating this named person’s crimes or character. I think the essay would be just as thought-provoking if it left the person’s name out, it would still pose difficult and important questions:

How does such an essay get accepted?

If someone cheats and gets a degree, how do they prosper in life? Should there be a correlation between honest work on a degree and success? If not, why do we care about the degree?

How much of submitting an essay is composing the essay, and how much is mechanically rearranging existing ideas into a form that passes the professorial filter?

Is there a Turing Test going on here? If a professor can’t tell the original works apart from the plagiarized ones, is the test flawed, or is there really no distinction between the good and bad students?

I really like the post, it provides much grist for my Olde Mill, which lies just west of the Forest of Runnymede.

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by InclinedPlane on Friday December 30, 2011 @07:57PM (#3409732)
Indeed. For myself I prefer to be as open minded and forgiving of others as possible.

In this particular case the evidence seems rather damning, but there can always be plenty we aren't aware of, life is complicated. Personally I hope the accused can recover from this, though in general I think that if more college students realized that the shame of plagiarism could come back and bite them in the ass later in life that would probably be a good thing. College isn't play time. Nor should it be training wheels for adulthood.

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by DanBC on Saturday December 31, 2011 @09:08AM (#3410886)
> If someone cheats and gets a degree, how do they prosper in life?

You work in tech? You've seen countless idiots who blatantly lie to get jobs? You've seen them get promoted (so they can no longer do harm, or because they're really good at lying) while talented people have to stick around to fix the problems and carry the slack?

Cheats prosper.

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by chernevik on Saturday December 31, 2011 @12:48AM (#3410274)
The beauty of this whole thing is that we're parsing due process responsibilities over an allegation of plagiarization of an essay on the Magna Carta, one of the founding moments in the history of due process.
Re:The Magna Carta Essay by dandelany on Friday December 30, 2011 @06:34PM (#3409552)
In general I agree with you in regards to accusations vs. due process. But in a plagiarism case like this, it's hard to imagine a situation in which the accusation isn't true. If the essay was factual, the student could claim that the similarity between the essays was coincidental, but an essay which just happens to contain the same made-up facts as the original? That's proof enough for me.
Re:The Magna Carta Essay by FuzzyDunlop on Friday December 30, 2011 @08:34PM (#3409811)
In terms of discussion and priority, I find it hard to give a plagiarism case equal worth to any number of social and political controversies that grace the front page of HN, or any reputable news site for that matter.

Plagiarism is a matter for the plagiarist, their employer or their institution, and the person whose work was copied (at a stretch). It's not the responsibility of a vigilante or a mob to chase up and vilify someone who has made an entirely academic mistake, deliberately or not.

That it's proof enough for you, or me, or anyone in this thread, is irrelevant, unless you're one of the three aforementioned parties involved. What influence do you or I have on their academic conduct? That's the teacher's, tutor's, or lecturer's job.

And since I'm overlooking the fact that plagiarism in itself is a form of copyright infringement, I'll posit this: people are against SOPA because it bypasses due process and presumes guilt, as decided entirely by the self-certified victim. How is a name-and-shame post like this, where the accused has had no opportunity to defend themselves or explain, any better? Were they even made aware of this beforehand?

Does anyone even know under what circumstances this happened either? Because an undergrad copying an article means absolutely nothing compared to a PhD doing the same.

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by raganwald on Friday December 30, 2011 @06:46PM (#3409580)
How is it proof enough for you when you haven’t even heard what this wretched person has to say in their defence? Imagine you were a juror. Having heard the prosecution, would you tell the defence that they are wasting their breath calling their own witnesses?

I don’t know if you intended to scare me out of my skin, but I find that phrase chilling. Men have been lynched and hanged without trial given that very same sentiment.

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by dandelany on Friday December 30, 2011 @07:14PM (#3409636)
Maybe you're right and I'm being a bit heavy-handed here. But if I painted a painting or released a song that showed up in someone else's portfolio, I wouldn't think twice about writing a blog post naming them. This doesn't really seem much different to me.

Accusing someone of plagiarism on the Internet and sentencing someone to death are such completely different scenarios that I have a hard time comparing the two.

edit: Upon further reflection, I do think that creating a honeypot essay for the sole purpose of shaming whoever copies it does seem rather malicious to me. However, I'm speaking more about the general case of publicly naming plagiarists than this particular witch-hunt.

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by raganwald on Friday December 30, 2011 @07:33PM (#3409692)
I think we’re talking at cross purposes. I agree that a lynch mob is a heavy-handed comparison. I am trying to speak to what we do when we encounter the accusation, rather than whether the accusation should be made. I amy not be clear about that, and of course I may not be right.
Re:The Magna Carta Essay by dandelany on Friday December 30, 2011 @10:30PM (#3410038)
Agreed. Thanks for clarifying.
Re:The Magna Carta Essay by philwelch on Saturday December 31, 2011 @12:20AM (#3410227)
I wouldn't hang this guy from a tree if that's what you're asking.
Re:The Magna Carta Essay by Semiapies on Friday December 30, 2011 @06:59PM (#3409599)
And there's a difference between just accusing someone and linking to that person's public posting of the essay.

Process is always warranted in the case of punishment, but when someone makes the evidence of their wrongdoing public on the internet, it's silly to act like it's some kind of witch-hunt or lynching to point it out.

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by adnam on Friday December 30, 2011 @06:58PM (#3409597)
A public accusation requires no due process. If the named student wants legal redress, let him sue for defamation.
Re:The Magna Carta Essay by mikeash on Saturday December 31, 2011 @10:50AM (#3411086)
Due process? The guy posted the essay online for the world to see. What more do you want before coming out and saying he did this?
Re:The Magna Carta Essay by rmc on Friday December 30, 2011 @06:03PM (#3409491)
As programmers who have college degrees and have to pass FizzBuzz at job interviews, I think we all have a low opinion of how good college degrees are. As such, I think cheating on a college degree is similar to cheating on an exam when you're 13. C'mon, it's not that important that you got it fraudulently.
Re:The Magna Carta Essay by eurleif on Friday December 30, 2011 @09:15PM (#3409891)
Maybe part of the reason so many college-educated programmers can't pass FizzBuzz is because a lot of them cheated?
Re:The Magna Carta Essay by rmc on Saturday December 31, 2011 @07:36AM (#3410770)
That could be the case with some people, but cheating is not that rife. The amount of rubbish programmers is massive. There are loads of students who don't cheat, and can't programme, but can get a CompSci degree.
Re:The Magna Carta Essay by donaldc on Saturday December 31, 2011 @02:00AM (#3410379)
As such, I think cheating on a college degree is similar to cheating on an exam when you're 13. C'mon, it's not that important that you got it fraudulently.

I'd say the main issue here is not that cheating on a college degree indicates a lack of competence. Rather, it indicates a lack of trustworthiness. This is just as serious of a shortcoming.

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by mekoka on Friday December 30, 2011 @05:53PM (#3409454)
Many records can be expunged after a while. There are recourses for offenders to make amend and with time, find the straight path.

The Internet is like a bell, you can't just unring it.

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by philwelch on Saturday December 31, 2011 @12:25AM (#3410236)
That's not especially true, actually. If something on the internet receives enough public attention it never dies, but lots of unnoticed and uncontroversial things just rot away quietly without anyone caring or being the wiser.
Re:The Magna Carta Essay by seiwyn on Friday December 30, 2011 @06:40PM (#3409561)
If the teacher didn't bother enough to read the paper and fail him, maybe he deserves the degree that he got.

Though someone stated that (not sure if this is fact) there is no statute of limitations on plagiarism, I feel like when it comes to college papers there should be.

Regardless of the fact that legally, college students are adults, they are still very prone to making mistakes. I see no reason to punish this one simply because he had the misfortune of copying a paper from an internet blogger.

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by kstenerud on Friday December 30, 2011 @07:02PM (#3409610)
"Regardless of the fact that legally, college students are adults, they are still very prone to making mistakes."

How is it that you define wholesale copying of someone else's work and passing it off as your own a "mistake"? You might as well call burglary a "mistake".

"I see no reason to punish this one simply because he had the misfortune of copying a paper from an internet blogger."

Holy chutzpah Batman! He chose of his own free will to copy someone's work rather than do the work himself (which is CLEARLY against the rules). But because the person he copied from is a blogger who has the means to expose his misdeeds, that's unfair?

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by philwelch on Saturday December 31, 2011 @12:45AM (#3410270)
Punching a hole in the wall is a mistake. Cheating on your wife is a mistake. Steering your car into a ditch, or into another car, is a mistake. People can do these things out of a sudden lapse of attention or outburst of emotion. Plagiarism isn't a mistake, it's premeditated and everyone knows not to do it.
Re:The Magna Carta Essay by Evgeny on Saturday December 31, 2011 @05:55AM (#3410661)
Cheating on your wife is a mistake

I can't imagine the circumstances where that's true. In general, you'd have at least a few hours to decide and change your mind. In most cases it wouldn't happen at all unless you actively show your interest in that other person.

Maybe when you're drunk and a lady just throws herself at you out of nowhere? I don't know how I would call such a person though ... lucky bastard?

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by philwelch on Saturday December 31, 2011 @10:13AM (#3410993)
Humans are hard wired to eat, fuck, fight and flee; everything else takes deliberation. That said, you may be right and I'm not inclined to quibble this particular point :)
Re:The Magna Carta Essay by wisty on Friday December 30, 2011 @07:21PM (#3409655)
I'd like to see the teacher and school named too. If 1 plagiarist in a million is publicly ripped to shreds, it won't make a difference. If a school that possibly graduates thousands of plagiarists is discredited, more professors might actually do their jobs.

I don't think it's unethical to cheat if cheating becomes the norm. At some point, it becomes the fault of the system, not the participants, and the schools are higher up the food chain.

Re:The Magna Carta Essay by waterlesscloud on Friday December 30, 2011 @07:07PM (#3409625)
"Misfortune"? Seriously?