News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by TedDoesntTalk on Thursday December 22, 2022 @02:13AM (#34090707)
Another app to install and leak my privacy. No thanks. I’ll wait in line for a key card.
Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by wenc on Thursday December 22, 2022 @03:22AM (#34091063)
What information will the app have that the hotel wouldn’t have at check in?
Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by Nextgrid on Thursday December 22, 2022 @04:16AM (#34091361)
IP address, browser/device fingerprint.
Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by TedDoesntTalk on Thursday December 22, 2022 @01:16PM (#34096515)
Precise locations, time spent at each location. And device information (model, OS), super cookie association. And if it asks permissions: contacts and photos, etc. sounds like parent would grant these permissions out of app love.
Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by amf12 on Sunday December 25, 2022 @12:37PM (#34129191)
You know, Phone OSs these days have a "allow location only while using the app" permission. I only need the app while I'm at my room or while checking out.

You can also reject contact and photos permissions to apps. None of the hotel apps have asked me for these.

Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by tgsovlerkhgsel on Thursday December 22, 2022 @05:10AM (#34091796)
Answered the same question here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34091783
Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by usrusr on Thursday December 22, 2022 @05:35AM (#34091960)
Everything you can grab from a silent push in those months when you don't check in but still have the app installed out of convenience. In other words: not much, but something (e.g. the company can know that the app is still installed).

I wouldn't go to lengths avoiding installation (just remember to uninstall if it really bothers you), but I'd prefer a purely web based implementation. How about clearing arbitrary NFC UID for access? (From a self-serve counter if taking humans out of the equation is so much of a goal) The credit card form factor is certainly not inconvenient at all, but dealing with them can still be surprisingly annoying when that happens to coincide with oddities from the very long tail of luggage situations.

Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by texasbigdata on Thursday December 22, 2022 @06:15AM (#34092237)
The precise amount of tin foil you are carrying to protect yourself, in pounds, for one. /s
Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by craftkiller on Thursday December 22, 2022 @12:26PM (#34095895)
You have to provide location access to enable bluetooth which means things like this story of the most unethical thing this former Twitter employee was asked to build are possible: https://twitter.com/stevekrenzel/status/1589700721121058817
Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by TedDoesntTalk on Thursday December 22, 2022 @01:09PM (#34096425)
Wow, what a story!
Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by scarface74 on Thursday December 22, 2022 @03:52AM (#34091223)
What privacy do you think you’re giving up by using an application? The hotel may find out you are staying there and when you come into your room - ie something they already know?
Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by Nextgrid on Thursday December 22, 2022 @04:16AM (#34091369)
It would link it to other pseudonymous identifiers that don’t (yet) know who you are but would very much like to.
Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by scarface74 on Thursday December 22, 2022 @04:23AM (#34091427)
And what are these “pseudononymous” identifiers that you worry about? It’s much easier to track across the web than apps.

And how is installing the Hilton app going to allow another app to find out information about you?

Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by Nextgrid on Thursday December 22, 2022 @05:05AM (#34091766)
Web/apps have a lot of pseudonymous data points but rarely have a link to your real-life identity. Real-life things like hotels have the latter but rarely the former. Installing an app allows data brokers to bridge the two identities.

> And how is installing the Hilton app going to allow another app to find out information about you?

Both apps rat out whatever they have on you to a data broker which then does the matching.

Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by scarface74 on Thursday December 22, 2022 @05:48AM (#34092052)
Don’t be handwavy, exactly what can an installed app find out about you without you giving it explicit permission?
Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by tgsovlerkhgsel on Thursday December 22, 2022 @05:08AM (#34091783)
Anything and everything the app and its 30 social, ad, and analytics SDKs are able to capture and exfiltrate from the phone.

Maybe they won't upload the list of my installed apps (which can leak information like religion or medical issues), maybe they won't track my location through the entire hotel (or everywhere), maybe they won't snoop on my pictures... but maybe they also will, and I don't like maybe.

Almost certainly I'll have to agree to lengthy ToS that will then be used as justification to inundate me with spam.

The Android permission model is particularly messed up because it changes every few SDK target versions, so it's hard to build a mental model what exactly you're allowing. Many apps that had a built-in photo-taking capability required storage access and wouldn't work without. Any app using bluetooth had to request and be granted location access (because Bluetooth could be used to track location... so any app acting as a key automatically also got to track you via GPS on top of that, and even if the app maker didn't want to they had to request the permission for Bluetooth to work).

I've seen too many companies pushing their apps aggressively and with massive rewards. They're clearly getting something out of it, and probably not something I want to give them. If you're very, very lucky, the main goal is only to make them more "sticky" (make it easier to use them over someone else next time), but that's the thing - I don't want past service providers to stick to me.

Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by scarface74 on Thursday December 22, 2022 @05:46AM (#34092031)
> Anything and everything the app and its 30 social, ad, and analytics SDKs are able to capture and exfiltrate from the phone.

I’m asking about iOS. If you have an Android device - using an operating system written by an ad tech company, the Hilton app is the last thing you should worry about.

Instead of being hand wavy, what exactly do you think an analytics SDK can “exfiltrate* from your phone outside of the app sandbox without your explicit permission?

> Maybe they won't upload the list of my installed apps (which can leak information like religion or medical issues),

Not possible with iOS. There was a loophole that Twitter used where they would try to send a message to another app. But Apple closed that a few versions ago.

> Almost certainly I'll have to agree to lengthy ToS that will then be used as justification to inundate me with spam

You mean the same TOS you have to sign when booking from their website? But I use the built in “Hide My Email” feature on iOS and give each app/website that I don’t care about a separate email that gets forwarded to my main email address.

> “ The Android permission model is particularly messed up because it changes every few SDK target versions, so it's hard to build a mental model what exactly you're allowing

“I care about my privacy yet I use an operating system with a poor permission model written by an adTech company”

Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by TedDoesntTalk on Thursday December 22, 2022 @01:13PM (#34096469)
And what if the app asks for access to your contacts? Would you grant it out of the convenience of the app, or would you deny it permission and ask for a card key?
Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by scarface74 on Thursday December 22, 2022 @01:58PM (#34097009)
No you don’t have to. When you share it, it creates a message with a link and brings up a share sheet controlled by iOS. You can then send the message block with the link either via email, text, or any other relevant third party app that registers a share extension.

It is all done outside of the apps process. iOS sends the message on the apps behalf to the other app.

There is no option to share your contact with the app.

Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by phpisthebest on Thursday December 22, 2022 @07:40AM (#34092714)
I find installing the app likely means more Privacy

When I travel, and in the App I provide my Work address and contact info, not my personal info

When checking in at the desk they take my government ID, often scan it into go knows what system or what security, and then replace my Work info with my personal address in their systems

No thank you, I will take the app instead

Re:Hotels turn to robots and room cleanings every 4 days to ... by ghaff on Thursday December 22, 2022 @09:02AM (#34093284)
In the US, I'm not sure I've ever had a desk worker more than glance at an ID. Many places do require one though--had a heck of a time checking into a Travelodge of all things once because I had lost my license. Not sure how much of this is hotel rules and how much local regulation.

Makes me wonder how this works when you use digital check-in.

It's true in Europe they often copy your license and, in some countries, I believe there's some registration with the police that the hotel handles.