News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by rhn_mk1 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @04:28PM (#34086628)
Mass matters for the simple reason that if you need to climb a hill, the energy required to lift a mass is proportional to the mass. Granted, barring extremely heavy bikes, ~3/4 of the mass is the rider.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by fluoridation on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @04:38PM (#34086738)
The human is more like >80% of the mass of the entire system, not ~75%.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by layer8 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @04:53PM (#34086877)
Not sure why this is downvoted. A normal bike shouldn’t weigh more than 15 kg (some weigh just half of that), so a human at 75% would only weigh 45 kg at most. Maybe people are thinking of e-bikes, which are a lot heavier.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by mshroyer on Thursday December 22, 2022 @09:33AM (#34093612)
My steel touring/commuter bike (not an e-bike) easily weighs more than that, at least if I count the lock and repair kit I keep attached to the frame.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by fluoridation on Thursday December 22, 2022 @01:02PM (#34096337)
Just how much extra equipment are you carrying? I would expect a bike like that unloaded to be around 12 kg.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by layer8 on Thursday December 22, 2022 @07:46PM (#34100996)
Fair enough, but for a human, let's say weighing 70 kg, to be 75% of the total weight, the bike plus whatever is attached to it would have to be above 23 kg. You only reach such a ratio with extra luggage.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by kqr on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:00PM (#34086943)
Also you reclaim the energy on the downhill. Mass doesn't matter as much as people used to think. (Hence no modern bikes being made out of drillium.)

The one thing where I suspect mass might matter is in the wheels. It's a huge difference between getting a heavy wheel spinning and a light one, and at least for commuting/recreational usage, most of that will be bled off as heat anyway.

Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by fluoridation on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:25PM (#34087225)
On the other hand, a heavy wheel will also hold more angular momentum and so will better resist drag, at the cost of more difficult acceleration, braking, and stiffer but more stable steering.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by roelschroeven on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @07:29PM (#34088215)
A heavier wheel, just like a heavier bike in general, doesn't "better resist drag". Yes, it makes the bike slow down slower, just as it makes it harder to speed up the bike.

When people say heavier bikes and/or wheels "resist drag better", it sounds like all that extra mass somehow magically makes it so that you need less power on the pedals to maintain speed. That is simply wrong.

Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by fluoridation on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @07:43PM (#34088306)
No, it's not wrong. Given the same cross-section and initial speed, a heavier object moving through a fluid over a certain time will decelerate less than a lighter object, and so will require less energy to bring it up to the speed it had before decelerating, because the difference in speed will be less. For the same reason, you would not ride while dragging an open umbrella behind yourself, but you'd have no problem putting a metal cube of the same mass on your stem. It's the ratio of cross-section and mass.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by roelschroeven on Thursday December 22, 2022 @07:20AM (#34092610)
> a heavier object moving through a fluid over a certain time will decelerate less than a lighter object

True

> and so will require less energy to bring it up to the speed it had before decelerating, because the difference in speed will be less

False

The higher inertia of the heavier object resisted the deceleration, and that same higher inertia will resist acceleration too in exactly the same way. You've gained nothing at all.

> For the same reason, you would not ride while dragging an open umbrella behind yourself, but you'd have no problem putting a metal cube of the same mass on your stem. It's the ratio of cross-section and mass.

Now you're talking about aerodynamics which is a whole different matter. For aerodynamics, cross-section is of course a major factor (not the ratio of cross-section and mass!). That's pretty obvious, but has nothing to do with a discussion about mass.

(Ratio of cross-section and mass is relevant for things in free fall, because there gravity is the relevant force. Completely different from a vehicle on a flat road.)

Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by aqfamnzc on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:56PM (#34089981)
Drag will exert a constant force regardless of mass. So heavier wheels may allow you to coast farther, but at constant speed they don't affect the drag component.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by fluoridation on Thursday December 22, 2022 @12:29AM (#34090151)
I didn't say greater mass changes drag, I said it resists drag better. As you say, the force remains constant, so with constant force and greater mass, acceleration gets a lesser absolute value.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by rhn_mk1 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:06PM (#34087001)
You reclaim it downhill if you book it. Casual riders seem to brake after reaching a certain speed, so they will send that energy to heat the brakes. Plus, the unfun of getting up the hill is probably more important than the fun going down, as it takes longer :)
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by DangitBobby on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @09:08PM (#34088858)
Unless you have a stop sign, traffic signal, or sharp curve at the bottom.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by jjav on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:48PM (#34087927)
> Also you reclaim the energy on the downhill.

What does this mean? A downhill gives your legs a rest if you coast but it's not going to restore all the energy you burned going up the hill. And if you're riding sportily (not even a race necessarily), you'll still be pedaling the same amount of watts downhill. You'll just be going faster for the same amount of muscle power.

> Mass doesn't matter as much as people used to think. (Hence no modern bikes being made out of drillium.)

Modern bikes are getting lighter and lighter.

> The one thing where I suspect mass might matter is in the wheels.

Yes, in terms of ROI by unit weight, lighter wheels are the best place to start.

Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by elektronaut on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @08:04PM (#34088439)
> Modern bikes are getting lighter and lighter.

The trend over the last few years have been disk brakes, aerodynamic features and wider tires, all of which come with a weight penalty. Some brands are now starting to converge their aero and lightweight offerings, though.

Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by dtgriscom on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @07:13PM (#34088110)
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by roelschroeven on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @07:39PM (#34088274)
> Also you reclaim the energy on the downhill.

Not really. Bikes don't have a battery to store reclaimed energy, if that would even be a thing. Maybe you go a bit faster on the downhill; I wouldn't call that reclaiming energy.

> Mass doesn't matter as much as people used to think.

On a flat road at a constant speed, mass doesn't matter (except for the slightly increased rolling resistance). With speed changes (in situations with sharp corners for example, or if you want to accelerate fast to escape from the bunch or to catch someone else) or in hilly/mountainous areas, mass does matter.

For recreational use, spending lots of money for shaving of a few grams here and there is not worth the effort, that's true. But a few kilograms more or less do make a difference.

> Hence no modern bikes being made out of drillium.

Modern top-of-the-line road bikes for climbing are already as light as allowed by the UCI. It makes no sense to drill holes in such a bike: you wouldn't be allowed to use it in a race.

Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by fluoridation on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @07:46PM (#34088318)
The flaw in that reasoning is that it assumes that the only conceivable use for a lightweight bike is to compete in a UCI-sanctioned event.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by roelschroeven on Thursday December 22, 2022 @08:58AM (#34093256)
An unstated assumption in my comment was that situations where light weight is most desirable are always UCI-sanctioned events. I admit that that view is probably too narrow.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by burnished on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @08:20PM (#34088549)
Kinetic energy is still energy, you store it going up hill and reclaim it going down.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by DangitBobby on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @08:57PM (#34088783)
Unless there is a stop sign, traffic signal, or sharp curve at the bottom before you've gotten to spend all that energy you worked so hard to build up. It's just not a guarantee that you can go full tilt down the gigantic hill you just climbed.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by burnished on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @10:10PM (#34089278)
That isn’t how physics works - you have to spend energy to counteract that kinetic energy you’ve ineluctably released by going downhill.

This sort of edge case maximalism feels useless and needlessly contrarian - it seems as though if I were to claim you can pay for things by credit card, you’d claim “that doesn’t work what if the power is out”.

Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by DangitBobby on Thursday December 22, 2022 @12:01AM (#34090012)
What are you on about? I do hilly rides all the time and personally feel the pain of not being able to reap the benefits of the climb _all the time_. Let's say I climb a big hill and there's a red light at the bottom of the other side. Guess where all my precious kinetic energy goes? It dissipates as sound and heat into my brake pads. Whoops! I ride about 60 miles a week on very hilly terrain. Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 very large hills that end in a stop sign at the bottom in the first 20 minutes of my regular ride! I actually can't think of a single hill where I'm totally free and clear going down the other side.

In my experience, hilly rides are just harder and I'm more tired after them. It's actually very surprising that what I would expect to be a common sense viewpoint is being considered the contrarian one! Sure, apply elementary physics and hills are meaningless, but apply real-world physics and maybe they aren't so meaningless. And we aren't even considering the differences in energy efficiency when your body has to work harder, or the major differences in energy loss through air drag at high speeds. There are also concerns about how comfortably and efficiently you are able to convert muscle energy into motion through pedaling (similar to how fast walking gaits are very inefficient) at both the high (downhill) and low ends (uphill) of pedal RPM.

Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by toast0 on Thursday December 22, 2022 @12:42AM (#34090223)
> I actually can't think of a single hill where I'm totally free and clear going down the other side.

The big hills I can think of near me all have either stop signs at the bottom, or another hill to climb.

Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by DangitBobby on Thursday December 22, 2022 @12:52AM (#34090270)
At least when it's another hill all that energy goes to good use!
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by roelschroeven on Thursday December 22, 2022 @09:03AM (#34093305)
What you store going uphill is potential energy, not kinetic energy.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by andreareina on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @08:25PM (#34088586)
Modern bikes don’t go below a certain weight because of the UCI minimum. If you look at non-UCI hill climb events you’ll see some crazy stuff.
Re:Bike frame stiffness: Why it matters and all you need to ... by indymike on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @09:05PM (#34088841)
This. When I used to ride (80s and 90s), a lot of people would try to shave weight and you saw some crazy stuff to get the bike down to 13-15 pounds. Bikes would be dangerously fragile because people would drill stuff and make wheels with fewer and fewer spokes. 17-19 lbs was really where the balance was between safe and light... and having equipment fail cost you a race really sucked... and people were getting hurt.