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Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by ryloric on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @10:43PM (#34076389)
Whenever I come across some new AI hype thing in the wild with the usual buzzwords, a sentence Dijkstra wrote way back sort of flashes through my head. It always reminds me to be careful and precise with words.

"...the question of whether Machines Can Think, a question of which we now know that it is about as relevant as the question of whether Submarines Can Swim."

In the same "post" he also talks a lot about hype and how it hurts the field. The last few years of computing have been exceptionally hype driven, even more than usual. We could've been better with a few more critics like him in that period.

[0] https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/ewd08xx/EWD898.PDF

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by idealmedtech on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @11:32PM (#34076678)
There are certainly critics, but their opinions, if consistently opposed to the hype cycle, get either sidelined or lambasted. Just sort any post on some new ML application by controversial comments and you'll find the critics aplenty.
Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by tomxor on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @04:05AM (#34078298)
> get either sidelined or lambasted

"No people"'s comments only seem to be worth enough in attention currency once things explode and it turns into an "I told you so".

At least within the world of facehype.com and hypper.com et al. Behind closed doors people are probably more critical.

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by qsort on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @01:48AM (#34077470)
It's also a sentence constantly on my mind. It's interesting to note it's a very different type of criticism than the ones that usually balloon when something new or supposedly new becomes public.

It's the kind of criticism that leaves room for genuine acceptance of the technical excellence and usefulness of those tools, while not buying the hype in the slightest.

EWDs are a gold mine. He's an exceptional thinker and his prose is beautiful.

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by baxtr on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @03:43AM (#34078165)
Can you recommend any book by him? Or essays?
Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by 082349872349872 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @03:55AM (#34078233)
Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by baxtr on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @04:48AM (#34078597)
Thanks for sharing! I realize I should have been clearer in my request. I was looking for 1-2 specific recommendations. I will look at the lists nonetheless.
Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by rramadass on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:26AM (#34078872)
Two books that i can recommend;

1) A Method of Programming.

2) A Discipline of Programming.

Browse the EWDs and read those whose titles interest you. My favourites are those dealing with Program Correctness and Languages.

Note that understanding Dijkstra can be hard; so don't be discouraged if you don't "get" something at the first read.

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by ryloric on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:11AM (#34078770)
EWD-898 I liked above is pretty great imo. I'v re-read it over half a dozen times over the years and still find it valuable.
Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by qsort on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:17AM (#34078812)
My personal favorites:

On the cruelty of really teaching computer science: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd10xx/EWD1036.PDF

How do we tell truths that might hurt?: https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.htm...

The humble programmer: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/EWD340...

The notational conventions I adopted and why: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd13xx/EWD1300.PDF

The Mathematical Divide: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd12xx/EWD1268.PDF

Why American Computing Science seems incurable: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/ewd12xx/EWD1209.PDF

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by DarmokJalad1701 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @01:55AM (#34077502)
When I first saw the title of this post, my first thought was that that this was a letter written by ChatGPT pretending to be Djikstra. So I guess there is something to be said about hype ... not sure exactly what though.
Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by sammalloy on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @04:03AM (#34078285)
Love your user name, dude. Reminds me of the old days reading Jammer’s Reviews.
Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by thriftwy on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @04:33AM (#34078492)
I thought it is a letter by Dijkstra to himself, judging by the "Letter to my own self".
Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by rramadass on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @04:54AM (#34078637)
>Whenever I come across some new AI hype thing in the wild with the usual buzzwords

Next time use this: "Is it your belief that we are all idiots?"

From: https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/misra/Speeches.dir/Banquet-W...

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by quietbritishjim on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:29AM (#34079271)
Until I read your link (which was very interesting BTW) I interpreted that quote the other way: Is it your [the parent commenter] belief that we [AI researchers] are all idiots?" I mean, sure there's a lot of marketing junk, but it's almost as naive to assume that there's no substance as it is to believe everything the marketers say.

Having said that, I don't think any serious AI researcher would claim that their creations are close to actually thinking.

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by qsort on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:43AM (#34079385)
> I don't think any serious AI researcher would claim that their creations are close to actually thinking.

I don't think anybody seriously believes that -- but setting reasonable public expectations from emerging technologies is at least in part the responsibility of the "technically literate class" broadly defined, research scientists, practitioners, even developers in ML/AI-adjacent fields such as myself.

Stuff like "GPT3 is coming for your job" is already out to the press. Nobody thinks that, nobody has even said that, but nobody has done anything to set expectations straight either.

We ought to be more responsible in this respect.

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by CamperBob2 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @10:37AM (#34082036)
Eh, they're not wrong. Given another 20-30 years of progress at this rate, it's coming for almost every knowledge worker's job.

Which is pretty freaking cool.

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by qsort on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:07AM (#34082488)
It's been 20-30 years in the future for several decades now.
Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by CamperBob2 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:28AM (#34082763)
Yes, and something finally happened. A hell of a lot happened, actually, starting with AlphaGo and progressing to a credible Turing-test contestant only a couple of years later.

But yes, your deeper point is hard to dispute; this business has always run on punctuated equilibrium. We may be in for another 50+ years of "AI winter." I doubt it, though. It feels different this time.

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by ryloric on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:50AM (#34083072)
> Nobody thinks that, nobody has even said that

Some said it though, I remember a prominent AI professor talking about radiologists losing their jobs on twitter and the ensuing mess surrounding it.

Except that, I agree strongly with everything else you pointed out.

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by rramadass on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @08:03AM (#34080173)
What i would really like to see is some Scientist(s)/Researcher(s) from the Statistics/AI/ML field rise up in arms and deliver verbal/in-print smackdowns (in the spirit of Edsger Dijkstra) setting the record straight to every hack/company/management/whoever person(s) out there selling AI/ML snake-oil to the masses.
Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by GuB-42 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:13AM (#34082575)
I interpreted it the same way. When millions of people work on or support a subject, be it AI, cloud computing, or football. Some of them must be way smarter, more ethical, more reasonable, more successful than me. I may find the subject dumb, but them I ask myself: why do these people do that? Or if it pays well, how come people don't do it instead of flipping burgers for a measly pay if it is so easy?

It doesn't mean it is right, but it is a good reminder that there is a high chance it is just me missing something.

As for the "marketing" thing, it is hard even for a full time teacher not to treat their audience as idiots and avoid losing them completely. Good teachers, when unsure, prefer to go the "idiot" path, not ideal, but at least your audience may understand something in the end.

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by Kiro on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:12AM (#34078783)
I think AI lives up to the hype. The stuff we take for granted now was pure science-fiction just a couple of years ago. If this pace of development holds up it truly deserves to be hyped.
Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by deelly on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:23AM (#34082696)
Sorry, english is not my native language, could you explain "...whether Submarines Can Swim." meaning? Swim as fish (answer - no, because submarines swim using propellers and analogs), swim as underwater ship (answer - yes, because submarines build to swim)?
Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by herodotus on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:38AM (#34082923)
Like many words in natural language, "Swim" does not have a precise meaning. A dictionary will probably sat something like "Propel through water using limbs", although the word "swimming" can sometimes be used metaphorically, for example "I have bits of bacon swimming in my potato soup". Cleary, bacon does not have limbs!

Now even though Submarines (usually) have propellors, one can easily imagine a design that used limb-like oars to propel it. Does this mean that such a strange submarine is swimming?

The point Dijkstra was making is that the comparison is pointless: there is a fundamental difference between an organism swimming and a machine moving through water. Trying to equate these two actions is pointless, since it adds no new depth of understanding. He therefore dismisses the question of "can machines think" as having no usefulness.

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by Cornelius267 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:34AM (#34082864)
I think that you actually understood the point perfectly! I'm a native english speaker, and to me, it looks like he is trying to raise the exact ambiguities that you are asking about.

I don't think that his statement is meant to be an answer, rather, I think it's meant to be a statement to jump off of. It's bringing up how definitions matter, and that in different contexts the answer to the same questions could be yes or no.

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by ryloric on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @12:05PM (#34083296)
You're correct.

My intent in quoting was to point out how careless usage of words in AI can fool people, especially the layperson and create wrong expectations. Most can see the difference in the usage of word 'swim' w.r.t fish and submarines, but public knowledge about AI is not at the point where they can make a similar distinction when using 'think' or 'chat' between human and machine.

He uses it differently though, he's using that sentence to criticize Alan Turing's early hypothesizing about AI. If you're interested, that document linked has more context.

Re:A handwritten letter from Dijkstra to an aspiring teenage... by mhuffman on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @12:11PM (#34083373)
I actually take this different. I take it to mean that machines can "think" in the same way that submarines can "swim" ... which is to say that they both can only do it at the pleasure, command, or creation of a human.