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Re:Amsterdam's 'stay away' campaign targets troublesome visi... by greggarious on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @12:39PM (#34069284)
I was very vocal that they shouldn't make the "coffeeshops" Dutch only, but that was before widespread legalization elsewhere. I remember seeing a lot of people pissing and shitting in places other than toilets and worse, with the attitude they could just get on a train and never come back and the police wouldn't come after them.

(In America, crossing the border like that is less effective.)

>Prague, Budapest, Instanbul, Berlin, even Belgrade have a party scene I'd describe as wilder and edgier.

But in those cities if you act out, you'll be punched out. Amsterdam seemed to have a lot of people who can't handle ambiguity, hence needing to literally go into the weed store with weed and literally go to the sex worker store with a sex worker in the window.

(I don't pay for sex, but as a humanist if that trade is going to happen I'd rather it be legal so folks have recourse if abused... it troubles me when it's warped from something done in desparation by the first generation into something glamorous.)

I feel bad for Dutch people. It's also got great coffee shops (for just espresso), museums, parks... it's like there's two cities in one.

I mean look at the article:

>This latest round of proposed measures includes initiatives targeting troublesome tourist behavior, such as limiting the number of river cruises; implementing earlier closing times for bars, clubs and window brothels; and banning cannabis smoking in certain parts of the city.

I was under the impression you should only doing it in the shops, and are risking a ticket or worse if you do it out of the park where it bothers people?

I feel bad since I was a bit wild myself, in the get drunk and be loud sense... but dear lord they're absolutely right to not want a bunch of 19 year olds re-enacting Eurotrip, people don't act antisocial in say, Prague or Paris at the level they do in AMS, but both have sex work and drugs. It's like the European Las Vegas, in that people confuse respect for privacy and autonomy with a free pass to do whatever they want.

PS: The Red Light district, once you're not near the windows, is quite beautiful and there's a lot of small shops and bars that are well run. It's literally like two streets that are "extreme", and the issue IMHO is the type of guy who comes to treat the window girls like zoo animals, not sex work per se.

Anyways, sorry for the wall of text -- I'm ill, and coping by pounding sudafed and water and posting on the internet since apparently antibiotics won't cure this cold virus, and it makes me sad as an autistic person seeing how badly people mess up on purpose when the entire time I was in the country I was petrified I'd offend people.

TL;DR:Some tourists are assholes it's fine to not want them showing up.

Re:Amsterdam's 'stay away' campaign targets troublesome visi... by nullcaution on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @01:12PM (#34069808)
> in the country I was petrified I'd offend people.

How so? I generally feel Dutch people are pretty patient.

Re:Amsterdam's 'stay away' campaign targets troublesome visi... by greggarious on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @12:48PM (#34083923)
It's a long story. I was presenting at a conference, and my employer was not respectful of the separation between work and home. So I felt like I couldn't really... vacation... like a normal twenty something.

But the people I was interacting with were mostly fellow tourists... the few bartenders or whatever I had to talk to were nice folks.

(To give an example, someone from my hostel started bragging he was a Navy Seal, got mad I doubted that, then started telling everyone I was in the CIA, and then threatened to punch me when I said "would the CIA go smoke their brains out in the smoking room? Leave me alone")

TLDR: The Dutch are patient, guys from the Army lying about their MOS to an NGO worker not so much.

Re:Amsterdam's 'stay away' campaign targets troublesome visi... by HWR_14 on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @01:43PM (#34070293)
> and are risking a ticket

Eh, if you are leaving the country soon, does a ticket matter? Are they going to extradite you for a 25 euro fine?

Re:Amsterdam's 'stay away' campaign targets troublesome visi... by greggarious on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @12:44PM (#34083872)
Do they check those things at the airport? I know in some SE Asian countries you'd be not allowed back in if you didn't make it right. Maybe the Dutch should do the same.

Or skip the fine and make them spend the night in jail unless their "business friends" come bail their ass out.

Re:Amsterdam's 'stay away' campaign targets troublesome visi... by HWR_14 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @10:16PM (#34089311)
I don't think they check such things at the airport, but I have no idea. Certainly you can drive without any checks into a neighboring EU country and fly from there.
Re:Amsterdam's 'stay away' campaign targets troublesome visi... by trilbyglens on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @03:44PM (#34072254)
Prague resident here. Hell ya people act unsocial here. The Brits and Germans specifically. Prague has replaced Amsterdam as the euro stag party destination for sure. Cops are very lax here and while not legal, weed is highly tolerated.
Re:Amsterdam's 'stay away' campaign targets troublesome visi... by MrJohz on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @01:14AM (#34077298)
My wife (German) and I (British) were in Prague, and every time we came across a loud, antisocial stag party, it ended up as a competition to see which of our countries was to blame. Beautiful city, depressing tourists...
Re:Amsterdam's 'stay away' campaign targets troublesome visi... by greggarious on Friday December 23, 2022 @02:54PM (#34109922)
I think the issue is the guides. Prague, I made the mistake of going into a "party hostel".

(I won't pretend my 20s were anything but wild but... you shouldn't party in the hostel, you should sleep, cook, and bathe there and party out in the city.)

Unlike other places where the pub crawls were a separate set of people it was just like... some of the staff stayed on after work? They would goad the folks walking between bars to sing and yell. (And goad the girls to overdrink)

I ended up nearly getting into a fight with one of them about the last bit - he told someone to do another shot, I was like lady you're like five feet tall and ninety pounds and there's like three more stops if you do three shots at each you might die, he got pissed and said "here's some water" and dumped one on me.

Then some Czech guy sitting the next booth over who he'd assumed couldn't speak English was like what are you trying to pull and got amused I was nearly fighting the hostel staff, he thought we were just bunkmates. Told me they should be paying you not him and took me to the next leg of their journey to calm down. Ended up having a bunch of water in the corner of some club I couldn't fully appreciate (very nice club, I probably wouldn't have been let in w/o someone putting me on a list), then walking back near morning to sleep for a bit then check out and move deeper into the EU by train.

Anyways... it was certainly an adventure, and to be clear Prague was very nice outside the party aspect -- I spent a whole day in Old Town just admiring the architecture... but that night kind of Signaled to me I was getting too old for hostels, which made me sad since I didn't really get to travel until late in life (by Eurotripping standards), so it was kind of my last hurrah but... a last hurrah means more like purposefully forgetting people's names and turning off your phone not -- being a huge jerk because you think you can hop a border :-)

Anyways TL;DR: I suspect the issue is often the hostels and/or tour guides actively encouraging people to be antisocial... the party I was with was pretty chill until they got goaded into singing between pubs. It's my understanding a lot of people get woken up by that if it's not a weekend in the old town and adjacent areas.

Re:Amsterdam's 'stay away' campaign targets troublesome visi... by com on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @03:02AM (#34077906)
Amsterdam resident in the Red Light District (de Wallen) here.

The tourists are a drag, as mentioned, they piss and poop and vomit all over the place. They decrease trade for the working women and people of other genders in the windows. My brilliant neighbourhood pizzeria closed and was replaced by a Nutella store.

But: most of this is driven by the cash-only bars and the evening “supermarkets” that still sell booze under the counter. Bars that aren’t responsible for street noise, antisocial behaviour or mountains of trash on the street every day.

Get the alcohol situation under control - booze only served to people indoors or seated outdoors. Booze sellers not obeying the law closed down permanently.

But there’s too much money in beer and Desperados, so they’re going to move the working women out from their relatively safe neighbourhood, cut down canal cruises? What?

Get more people enjoying what is a lovely, unique and above all surprisingly real neighbourhood that like it or not is dependent on tourism.

Or accelerate gentrification while the streets are washed every night with vomit in the meantime until rich folk complain too much to their buddies in the city government.

The antisocial situation is not people who’ve snorted chalk dust or taken placebo drugs, or eaten a space muffin. It’s excessive drinking and a culture of impunity of the bars.

Re:Amsterdam's 'stay away' campaign targets troublesome visi... by greggarious on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @12:43PM (#34083835)
>The tourists are a drag, as mentioned, they piss and poop and vomit all over the place. They decrease trade for the working women and people of other genders in the windows. My brilliant neighbourhood pizzeria closed and was replaced by a Nutella store.

Condolences, Nutella is overrated and so does gentrification.

>... most of this is driven by the cash-only bars and the evening “supermarkets” that still sell booze under the counter. Bars that aren’t responsible for street noise, antisocial behaviour or mountains of trash on the street every day. Get the alcohol situation under control - booze only served to people indoors or seated outdoors. Booze sellers not obeying the law closed down permanently.

I agree. But also maybe cite people who piss and shit in public as well?

AMS has plenty of restrooms, people are just lazy little fucks. Part of it might be alcohol, but part of it is permissiveness -- America takes it too far in the other direction and labels you a sex offender if the only person who stumbles upon you peeing is a cop but... fining people three or four figures might help.

(Or throwing them in jail overnight)

Orrrr... raise the drinking age to 21 like in the USA? I got the sense it's mostly Americans who go buck wild, but apparently it's a thing in some places in London they set it higher and that's not the worst idea IMHO.

>The antisocial situation is not people who’ve snorted chalk dust or taken placebo drugs, or eaten a space muffin. It’s excessive drinking and a culture of impunity of the bars.

Yeah, I overdid it on the last one and people were nice -- I took some psychobillin and the peoplke in my hostel started messing with me, so I ended up in the corner of some frites shop for 3 hours, and I felt bad about it.

I think maybe it's something about alcohol? I quit the stuff, and I've noticed it makes people... meaner. Not just in the fighty sense but more willing to do things like... entitlely demand to use a toilet someplace they've never been a customer then go poop into a canal if their don't get their way.

(The best being some percentage of them apparently fall in and someone has to literally drag them out? That's another solution, though maybe too dark... just let them drown in their own urine.)

But I'll shut up and defer to you since you actually live there -- I only visited :-)