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Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by pseudo0 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:38PM (#34045728)
It seems like it would be the smart move to hire someone with expertise in social media, give them his high-level vision, and let them implement the details. The last few weeks of Elon's micromanagement have been a complete shitshow.
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by wmf on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:40PM (#34045760)
Everyone with expertise in social media hates Elon's high-level vision.
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by BulgarianIdiot on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:45PM (#34045835)
Depends what we mean by his high-level vision. If it's the "everything app", I'd say that vision is not bad by default, but the details matter.

But if his high-level vision is described by his actions so far... oh my God, yeah, no one would wanna touch that with a thousand mile pole.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by sqlcommando on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:05PM (#34046130)
"Everything app" seems like a great vision. Let's not get hung up on the details of, you know... everything.
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by ssnistfajen on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:47PM (#34046608)
It's fun to think about until you realize building the company/service portofolio that can support a mega-app would almost certainly attract ire from regulators even within the U.S., ignoring the amount of capital investment required to achieve it.

Plus, Uber/Spotify/Doordash/Yelp can barely turn a profit as-is. What incentives will the everything app offer to pull consumers away from these existing competitors other than subsidizing the services with VC money, which would only worsen profitability and sustainability?

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by BulgarianIdiot on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:53PM (#34046688)
Let's imagine Google Cloud, AWS, Azure are resp. Google's / Amazon's / Microsoft's everything apps. They are managing to handle the regulatory weight of supporting applications of all kinds of nature, and if you rethink Twitter as a platform you can do the same as well.

Many things are possible, and the Twitter app today may even continue to work as-is. But underneath it will be able to power more apps and more use cases, all tied under a common cohesive set of interactive primitives, much higher level than what cloud applications today support. This means less to reinvent, less to rediscover, and easier more natural integration between apps, services and components.

It'd be a lot of work, definitely not a 2-3 month project. So you'd need also a survival strategy that keeps Twitter 1.0 working and profitable.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by ssnistfajen on Sunday December 18, 2022 @09:38PM (#34047651)
Google, Amazon, and Microsoft absolutely do not have "everything" apps. Google Maps is the closest to a mega-app and it's still highly focused on things that are location-based.

These companies also don't favour their own services over others on their cloud platforms. That's why regulators aren't coming after them. Twitter is not a cloud service provider and it's not hard to see why the argument you presented does not hold up.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by BulgarianIdiot on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:19AM (#34050089)
I'll be brief so you hopefully see my point:

1. A general purpose computing platform is an everything app. 2. Cloud platforms and their APIs are a significant step towards moving higher-level in development platforms compared to, say, compiling a raw binary and running it on Linux. 3. Keep moving in that direction.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by ssnistfajen on Monday December 19, 2022 @11:24AM (#34053916)
1. The "everything app" being talked about is essentially a Chinese tech giant mega-app, which are absolutely not general purpose computing platforms which are not "apps" themselves.

2. Agreed but this has nothing to do with Twitter or mega-apps whatsoever.

3. Transitioning to cloud service is not what Twitter needs to do right now even under the mega-app vision. And attempting so under their current situation is a sure fire way to actually go bankrupt.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by BulgarianIdiot on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:57PM (#34057591)
His everything app idea is similar to WhatsApp yes, but he's had this idea from way back, when he got the X domain. The thing I'm describing is a long term vision, you need to first be profitable with the current platform before you start that.
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by ssnistfajen on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:55PM (#34058304)
Has he ever stated anywhere that his long term vision is a "general computing platform"? Because mega-apps are not that. There has been zero building happening or even hinted at towards his everything app vision while he is wrecking everything at Twitter.
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by BulgarianIdiot on Monday December 19, 2022 @06:31PM (#34059385)
He has compared Twitter to a neural network where we (and bots) are the nodes. I feel this was him mostly trying to sound fancy, but in my mind I'm absolutely gonna grab this and run with it.

Mega-app, the way I understand that term, is not what he's after. He's mentioned that he wants to allow HQ video and compete with YouTube and have a separate app which shows a YouTube-like view of only tweets with videos on them. Like a projection of that content, from the same platform.

Or alternatively you can see it as merely a "videos tab" in a single "mega-app", but this distinction is not quite substantial on a higher level, only about the logistics of marketing the app and maintaining it.

As for there being zero building happening... of course. He's trying to stop bleeding cash for now. I'm not suggesting he's working on this NOW.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by ssnistfajen on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @12:46AM (#34062036)
Let's agree to disagree here because we are clearly not talking about the same things at all. I suggest reading up on what Chinese mega apps look like and Musk's personal comments that referred to WeChat. Adding longform video is exactly part of a conventional mega-app and it is absolutely not revolutionary whatsoever.
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by BulgarianIdiot on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @09:27AM (#34066342)
Sorry I said WhatsApp above when I meant WeChat. Video alone is not revolutionary, nor are payments. We don't disagree that much.
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by BulgarianIdiot on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:47PM (#34046610)
Haha, funny response, but I did say the details matter ;-)

I may be projecting my own ideas onto "everything". When Elon took over Twitter, I was inspired by his idea, and combined with concepts from some projects I'm working on, over two weeks or so, in my free time I wrote like 50+ pages of notes on what "Twitter 2.0" might be.

Is Elon's idea anything close to so comprehensive, I don't know. We only know he wanted payments in it, but this is barely scratching the surface of what Twitter could be.

Twitter's timeline of messages could be seen as a communication platform, computation platform, verified facts registry and so on. The rabbit hole is deep if you let your fantasy run wild.

Alas... instead we have this today.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by pram on Sunday December 18, 2022 @09:33PM (#34047618)
You put more thought into it than he did.
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by newZWhoDis on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:53PM (#34045954)
And I hate just about anyone you probably consider an experts “vision” on social media, especially since what it ended up becoming was a “”private”” end run around the 1st and 4th amendments.

It really is perfect, a not-government entity making wink-wink decisions at the behest of unelected executive branch employees.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by pseudo0 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:00PM (#34046062)
What it looks like Elon is trying to do is:

- Level the playing field between the "blue-checks" and everyone else. I think the intent of that is to encourage the 90% of people who passively consume content to engage more, and encourage lurkers without accounts to sign up.

- Reduce the dependency on advertisers by pivoting to a model that is partly user-funded. Reddit seems to have had some success with this, for example.

- Signal that Twitter is going to be less politically partisan going forward, probably in an attempt to rope back in users who moved to right-wing Twitter clones.

I don't think those are objectively terrible ideas, but the implementation so far has been remarkably bad.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by bb88 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:12PM (#34046223)
> ... probably in an attempt to rope back in users who moved to right-wing Twitter clones.

The problem with Twitter isn't free speech, but objective reality. There's only room for one reality on Twitter -- not two, or three, or four.

Truth Social and the right wing platforms don't challenge people's view that the 2020 election was a fraud, that pizza gate really happened, so they will probably continue now as they are.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by pseudo0 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:21PM (#34046338)
For a lot of right-wing people I have spoken to, the Hunter Biden story getting falsely removed for "Russian disinformation" was the last straw. Think of it as a dumb scandal if you want, but the issue was a legitimate news story published by high-profile mainstream news outlets getting removed using counter-disinformation tools. That really damaged Twitter's credibility.

Now they would rather hang out on a site where they don't have to worry about overbearing moderation, at the cost of a handful of nutters talking about Satanic rituals or whatever. I think Musk had a plausible route to getting those users back if he could promise slightly more limited and fair enforcement of the rules.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by bb88 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:45PM (#34046588)
Is it the fact they don't want anyone to question their belief system? Because that's what I see.

When they are questioned, they martyrize themselves to spark more outrage. (I'm a victim of the woke left!) And then use that as a crutch to deflect further criticism or questions.

If it wasn't Hunter Biden's Laptop, it would be something else, e.g. Pizzagate, Voting Machines, Mail-in Balloting, Fake school shootings, etc.

You can't blame the mainstream media if you're the one that's calling "wolf" over and over without facts.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by pseudo0 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @08:35PM (#34047091)
I don't really think that's the case. We can see the dynamic in action on the Fediverse, a space where anyone can make their own server and moderate it according to their wishes. There are right-wing servers that have created their own walled gardens (Gab, Truth Social), but at the same time the left-wing servers have created server blacklists that include most of the "free speech" servers. Given the option, a lot of people across the political spectrum apparently want hugboxes.
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by bb88 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @09:45PM (#34047713)
I'm not saying it doesn't happen on the left as well. I'm just saying it's easier to recognize when it does happen on the right. The Dominion v. Fox News lawsuits come to mind here. Parents of Sandy Hook v. Alex Jones, too.

Back around 1991/1992 the Democrats in congress were so convinced there was an October Surprise in the 1980 election. There just wasn't anything there.

Hugboxes don't force you to question your belief system, right? You can go on living in whatever world you want to. But anything coming out of those hugboxes, no one should take seriously, right?

Before social media we would have called much of this stuff "conspiracy theories".

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by jessaustin on Sunday December 18, 2022 @11:06PM (#34048342)
The reason there wasn't an October surprise was that Reagan's cronies conspired to prevent it:

https://theintercept.com/2021/10/11/bani-sadr-reagan-iran-ho...

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by trashtester on Monday December 19, 2022 @06:09AM (#34050803)
The hard right, and their conspiracy theories about Pizzagate, Voting Machines, Mail-in Balloting and Fake school shootings are crazy and disgraceful, in my opinion. And I lost any respect I might have had for Trump after the aftermath of the 2020 election.

But I'm equally disapproving of the left in their handling of the 2016 election and its aftermath, and the way they represented it as "stolen", as well as their narratives during the BLM "protests" and January 6 "insurrection". Imo, if Trump had really wanted a coup, he would have placed his people in top positions of the armed forces, and used actual armed soldiers. Q-anon and others involved on January 6 did not seem to have anywhere near the kind of organization to carry out an actual coup.

Also, Twitter and outher outlets suppressing (then and even now) the Hunter laptop (not the porn, but the actual evidence of corruption that looked like it involved Joe) made it look super-partisan.

Later on, the partisan divide arround covid, with crazy anti-vaxxers on one side, and similarly irrational support for excessive lockdowns and suppression of the WIV story on the other, it seemed like Twitter was contributing to the excesses of both sides.

The world (and perhaps especially the US) needs a platform where moderates of both sides can meet to discuss their differences, and where moderation is (to the extent it is carried out) applied to the crazy people of BOTH sides when it becomes excessive.

That way, one can hope, it may be possible to separate facts from matters of opinion from outrights falsehoods.

If too many people consistently tow the party line (which many be the case for anyone consistently agreeing with their own side on all issues above), I think a breakup of the USA is inevitable. The result will be one Woke-merica and one Maga-merica, and quite possibly civil war.

When Musk took over, I was hoping he would take the platform in a direction where it would support a moderate centre.

So far, he has not made much progress.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by bb88 on Monday December 19, 2022 @08:29PM (#34060365)
> That way, one can hope, it may be possible to separate facts from matters of opinion from outrights falsehoods.

Jan. 6th was a based on a series of falsehoods. Fox News and several Republican politicians claimed it was a antifa "False Flag" operation the night after it happened.

Fox News downplayed much of the Trump scandals in his presidency. So now turnabout is fair play I guess with the coverage of whatever's on Hunter Biden's laptop? The entire narrative is clouded by Giuliani and company apparently tampering with the data that made it to the NY Post.

> .. and quite possibly civil war.

So we need to restore Trump to the presidency, suspend the constitution, or whatever the right wing demands or there will be violence? Why can't it be just as simple Fox News, Alex Jones, OANN, and Newsmax agreeing to no longer manufacture outrage for ratings?

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by trashtester on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @12:20AM (#34061855)
> So we need to restore Trump to the presidency, suspend the constitution, or whatever the right wing demands or there will be violence?

Not what I'm saying at all, rather the opposite. But if both sides stop interpreting everything coming frome moderates on the other side in the worst possible light, that's a start in mitigating polarization.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by bb88 on Tuesday December 20, 2022 @02:52PM (#34071493)
Personally I don't think that's the issue.

I think the issue is that social media is the most amazing tool for propaganda ever invented.

The Russians realized it in 2016. One of the two political parties learned from that experience rather than wanted to fix it.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by trashtester on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @02:19AM (#34077628)
> I think the issue is that social media is the most amazing tool for propaganda ever invented.

The Russians realized it in 2016, and the data I've seen indicates that they promoted both Trump and Sanders at the time.

> One of the two political parties learned from that experience rather than wanted to fix it.

Both sides spread a lot of lies and even more half truths both in social media and more traditional media. The loyalists on both sides also both seem unable to spot where their own side is spreading disinformation and propaganda.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by dotnet00 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:04PM (#34046112)
Most self-proclaimed "experts in social media" seem to be responsible for making it the disaster that it is for our societies.

The one thing that has definitely been refreshing about new Twitter is that the leader isn't yet another "social media expert" and just another social media user with similar complaints as millions of other users.

Personally I really hope they also get rid of the "UX experts" next, given how shit Twitter's UX is, especially on anything that isn't a phone.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by sdenton4 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:30PM (#34046420)
The problem is that people who want to do social media will become what they hate, because of the very real constraints which people learn about quickly once they're actually steering the ship. Very few social media places don't suck, and it takes a pretty heavy hand to keep things from going completely to hell. The two places I know which aren't hives of scum and villainy are HN and Metafilter; both are heavily moderated, text only, and basically ad free.
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by dotnet00 on Sunday December 18, 2022 @09:07PM (#34047404)
I feel like to an extent that is the usual response to any sort of attempt at disruption.

For example, prior to Falcon 9 the argument used to be that SpaceX too would have to either succumb to relying on expensive cost-plus contracts or go bust like all other space companies before them. Yet, as they pushed up against that attitude and tried their own approach, they became successful and set the model that has now led to hundreds of new private space companies. Similarly, the argument against reusing F9 was that it wouldn't fly often enough to pay for reuse.

Thus I think that it isn't too crazy to consider that maybe with all this fiddling around they might stumble upon a more healthy model for social media for their scale. Especially considering that this environment of a large platform with an existing userbase undergoing said change is very unique (in that most other attempts at healthier social media have failed in part due to not being able to rely on pre-existing network effects).

Maybe they'll still fail, but I think it's still worth trying (even if it kills Twitter) rather than just appointing another 'expert' to continue to make things worse. Especially because it isn't my own money on the line :)

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by Faark on Sunday December 18, 2022 @10:18PM (#34047971)
It certainly would be a fun experiment. But the dynamics are so quite different from what he usually deals with.

Lets start with employees... both Tesla and especially SpaceX had hordes of people wanting to work there. I don't currently see the same for Twitter, and Elon just removed a bunch of talent.

Customers are also widely different. Tesla were enthusiasts willing to overlook drawbacks and oopsies. SpaceX was few high value ones like NASA, and by now have a great track record, not to mention the price. Instead of believers in the company mission, many twitter users are just average people. They will complain. They might leave due to drastic changes. Sure, there is a strong network effect. But Musk payed a lot of money for that, should he really risk it all?

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by parineum on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:31AM (#34049812)
>Lets start with employees... both Tesla and especially SpaceX had hordes of people wanting to work there. I don't currently see the same for Twitter, and Elon just removed a bunch of talent.

I don't know of anyone who is clamoring to work for Twitter now but the people he fired definitely don't seem like the type you're describing either. I think he views the majority of Twitter to be inmates running the asylum.

The real question is will he be able to find replacements that share his vision/passion for Twitter like he did with those companies. Twitter seems a lot less prestigious than SpaceX or Tesla.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by notahacker on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:26PM (#34046389)
Does he even have a high level vision beyond generating a reaction?

(The "free speech platform" sounded like a vision, but we wouldn't have new banning offences every five minutes if that had been a serious consideration rather than something he said for the likes)

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by ssnistfajen on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:42PM (#34046556)
His high level vision was to create "X the everything app" in the style of mega-apps offered by Chinese tech giants. Not only does this vision require clearing massive regulatory hurdles, secure immense amount of capital funding, and acquire/build a highly diversified portofolio of companies covering multiple unrelated consumer sectors, there's probably nobody willing or capable to take that job.
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by LudwigNagasena on Sunday December 18, 2022 @07:49PM (#34046640)
I am sure you wanted to make Elon look like a bad guy, but saying that people from Facebook and Tiktok hate Elon's vision does the exact opposite.
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by noirbot on Sunday December 18, 2022 @10:25PM (#34048036)
I'm not sure it's meant to make him look good or bad as much as just say "What person who Elon would agree with, who also has an idea of how to run a social media/moderation business, would agree to work for him and implement his vision."

The problem with being someone with ideas outside of the rest of your community is that you generally can't find other people with complimentary skills who agree with you.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by philistine on Sunday December 18, 2022 @10:25PM (#34048039)
Two bads don't make a right.
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by salamo on Sunday December 18, 2022 @10:50PM (#34048238)
More fundamentally, it's not clear there is a coherent high-level vision. You can either

- allow all legal speech; or

- ban doxxing, publicly available location info, bots, spam, info critical of Musk/Twitter, parody, links to other social media, and Kanye West

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by bilbo0s on Sunday December 18, 2022 @06:50PM (#34045908)
Whatever you think about removing Elon as head of Twitter, whether you believe that to be smart or not, this is just not how you go about making decisions as a leader.

Think of it this way, will Elon be conducting a new poll on whether or not to fire his replacement in a year's time? (Because that's what this type of decision making process leads to.)

This is not sustainable because it does not bring any sort of stability.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by sillysaurusx on Sunday December 18, 2022 @11:26PM (#34048477)
MySpace Tom seemed to be interested: https://twitter.com/myspacetom/status/1604658018213195777?s=...

Imagine if Tom ran twitter. We’d truly be in the best timeline.

Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by bouk on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:26AM (#34050125)
If only there was someone with expertise in social media at Twitter
Re:Should I step down as head of Twitter? I will abide by th... by CaptainZapp on Monday December 19, 2022 @09:28AM (#34052398)
Which high level executive would want to work for this guy after the public shit show on display for the last few weeks?

Specifically how he treats his underlings.