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Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by subsubzero on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @02:12PM (#33974165)
Do we know how much tritium is needed for a city's energy generation? What about a state etc? Reason I ask is the only uses I have seen for tritium is on old watch dials made in the pre-90's. Curious how much of this resource is out there.
Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by twic on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @02:46PM (#33974668)
Take spullara's numbers:

2.01410177811 u = 3.34449439340696e-24 g deuterium

3.01604928 u = 5.008267217094e-24 g tritium

17.6 MeV = 7.832863e-19 kWh energy

Divide through, and you will see that you need 4.27 ug/kWh of deuterium, and 6.39 ug/kWh of tritium.

A random source [1] says that New York will use 50.6 TWh per year by 2027. That would require ~216 kg/yr of deuterium and ~323/yr kg of tritium.

This is all assuming 100% efficiency. A quick read suggests 50% efficiency might be practical, so double those quantities.

Also, i could easily have messed up that calculation somewhere, so please do check it!

[1] https://www.buildingcongress.com/advocacy-and-reports/report...

Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by rerdavies on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @11:14PM (#33979937)
Tritium has a half-life of 12 years so there is no deep pool of tritium upon which to draw. The primary source of tritium on earth is cosmic-ray interactions in the upper atmosphere that produces 7.5Kg of tritium a year worldwide.[1]

Isn't that going to cause a serious problem if it requires 323Kg/yr of tritium just to power New York City?

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sci...

Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by wizofaus on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @11:21PM (#33979967)
Apparently no, because it can be made by the fusion process itself, via contact with lithium, and there's enough proven reserves of the latter to supply us for 100s of years.
Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by moloch-hai on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @11:45PM (#33980091)
Nobody knows how to get tritium at PPB concentration from the thousand tons of radioactive molten FLiBe it is dissolved in. You have to process all of it every day because you need that tritium for fuel tomorrow.
Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by BadBadJellyBean on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @03:55PM (#33975641)
I wonder if that is much or not. I have no idea how hard this is to produce. Do you have an idea about that?
Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by mbauman on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:36PM (#33976221)
Oooof, looks like the primary way of creating it is through... fission reactors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritium#Production

And there's not much of it:

> According to a 1996 report from Institute for Energy and Environmental Research on the US Department of Energy, only 225 kg (496 lb) of tritium had been produced in the United States from 1955 to 1996.[a] Since it continually decays into helium-3, the total amount remaining was about 75 kg (165 lb) at the time of the report.

Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by davidklemke on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:24PM (#33976042)
The concentration of deuterium in the ocean is about 150-160 parts per million and with 1233.91 quintillion liters covering the earth we have approximately 8.2260667e+12kg worth of it to extract, so we've got a bit to work through!

Tritium however is far more rare with only trace amounts of it being available within nature and barely more than a kg produced per year. Producing the 100s of kgs required per year still seems to be an unsolved problem, although my quick searching shows there's a couple viable solutions for it.

Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by mlyle on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:26PM (#33976070)
The solution is that fusion power plants can breed tritium and become net producers of it...

Though in practice enough will be lost that probably they'll still be somewhat net consumers-- just not nearly to the extent predicted by a simple thermodynamic model.

Still, even if fusion becomes a net producer of tritium, the whole tritium-is-hard-to-get problem will likely be a constraint that we'll be fighting as we ramp up use of fusion power in the future.

Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by wizofaus on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @11:32PM (#33980017)
That such a small amount of matter could generate so much power is pretty remarkable. I might be way off base but from what I can find online it seems you'd need over 2000 times as much uranium?
Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by yonaguska on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @02:59PM (#33974828)
Tritium is very popular on gun sights as well- as it's a glow in the dark sight that doesn't need to be charged. I'm now questioning the practice of appendix carrying with tritium sights.
Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by ars on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @03:19PM (#33975132)
Tritium decays by beta-decay (an electron). The electron can not travel very far in air (1/4 inch), and is stopped by even the thinnest piece of metal. It's even stopped by the dead outer layer of your skin.

i.e. it's completely harmless unless you eat it.

Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by XorNot on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:02PM (#33975731)
Not quite: beta decay will penetrate the skin enough to damage living tissue - beta burns are what caused the fatalities of the Chernobyl first responder fire fighters.

They spent a few hours covered in dust on their coats, and did a bunch of subsurface skin damage which manifested as third degree burns. Sepsis, not radiation poisoning, generally killed them.

Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by dublin on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @05:09PM (#33976716)
Well, it lasts for several years, but considerably less than even a human lifetime: Tritium's half-life is only about 11 years, so gun sights, dark-proof glow-in-the-dark signage (usually reserved for critical industrial plants, ships and offshore platforms due to expense), etc, will become seriously degraded in just a few years. (Since the glow is directly proportional to the remaining low-level beta radioactivity, which can barely penetrate the glass envelope in the first place - you'd get more radiation (from radium) living in a brick house than carrying 24-7.)

FWIW, tritium and a phosphor granule encapsulated in glass microspheres have been developed for self-illuminating runway paint, but again, no one really uses it because tritium is stupid expensive, and again, it' loses half its brightness in only a decade.

On the other hand, I've been told that Trijicon will replace their tritium gun sights for the lifetime of the original owner. I plan to live long enough to cost them money...

Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by binkHN on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @07:16PM (#33978249)
> Tritium's half-life is only about 11 years, so gun sights ... will become seriously degraded in just a few years.

We'll all be using RDSs by then ;) ?

> ...I've been told that Trijicon will replace their tritium gun sights for the lifetime of the original owner.

I didn't know this, thanks.

Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by S04dKHzrKT on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @02:27PM (#33974378)
Real Engineering recently made a video that covers fuel needs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzK0ydOF0oU

Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by phtrivier on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:51PM (#33976448)
And the (otherwise excellent) channel is supposed to soon post an adv... I mean informer... I mean "exclusive documentary" about "repeat after me we're totally not a scam - we just play one on YouTube" fusion startup Helion.

Which I'm going to watch, because even though everything I hear about this company gives me insane Theranos vibes... Well, if they pull it off... They might light a bulb with fusion in my lifetime.

Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by adaml_623 on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @06:08PM (#33977571)
The Helion approach seems plausible to me. Can you point me towards some of the sources that give you vibes?
Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by phtrivier on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @03:03AM (#33981123)
A recent episode on Matt Ferrel's Undecided [1]

(And I though I had seen a similar segment on "Answer with Joe", but I can't find it.)

None of those would be opposable source, of course - there won't be any until they open a plant, publish data, etc...

In the meantime, I see a hype cycle brewing, and it makes me a bit uncomfortable - but, we'll see.

[1] https://youtu.be/yNP8by6V3RA

Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by w0mbat on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @05:15PM (#33976798)
Tritium is also used in gun sights.
Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by adgjlsfhk1 on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @02:56PM (#33974787)
TLDR is there isn't nearly enough tritium, but fusion reactors can make more (while still generating energy)
Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by ngcc_hk on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @04:46PM (#33976365)
Can you collect them easily in the reactor ?
Re:US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved by elihu on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @07:27PM (#33978349)
If I understand correctly, tritium is the result of bombarding lithium with neutrons.

I'm not sure how tokomaks are expected to work; do you just add lithium and expect the tritium to get where it needs to go to keep the reaction going, or do you actively remove gases from vessel, filter out the tritium, and re-use it as fuel?

Either way, I don't imagine it'd be too hard to recapture the stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeding_blanket