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Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by Retric on Thursday December 08, 2022 @01:25PM (#33911256)
No single example on it’s own seems like such a big deal. But long hours, being on call, little respect, etc show IT is a low status profession that happens to pay reasonably well.
Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by yamtaddle on Thursday December 08, 2022 @01:50PM (#33911547)
> IT is a low status profession that happens to pay reasonably well.

IMO this is absolutely crucial to understand about our industry, for programmers too, not just IT.

We're paid well because they can't avoid paying us well. But they don't want to let us in The Club of the actual professional or upper-middle class, in terms of perks and status (and, actually, pay in most of the industry, even in the US, doesn't quite rise to that level—$200k+ for mid-career-or-earlier isn't what most programmers see).

Frequent monitoring and things like open floorplan offices are part of that. High-status gets very little monitoring, and an office. There are tons of little things like this.

I think it may also be a minor reason our interviews are so god-awful (but I think the main reason is the huge players trying to reduce turnover to suppress the rate of wage increases).

Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by sokoloff on Thursday December 08, 2022 @02:45PM (#33912299)
I think a major reason interviews are so god-awful is that, due in large part to the high wages, there are a lot of frankly totally unqualified people seeking SWE positions. And when they fail an interview, they don’t dematerialize, but rather keep banging away hopelessly at the front door of the process.

When companies want a fully algorithmic way to filter for signal, it’s not because we think it’s a great process, but because it’s one of the only viable processes.

Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by jimkoen on Thursday December 08, 2022 @03:23PM (#33912822)
> frankly totally unqualified people seeking SWE positions

PLEASE explain to me what value leetcode-type questions provide over what good of a software engineer someone is!

Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by sokoloff on Thursday December 08, 2022 @03:40PM (#33913045)
Imagine you had an automated oracle who could tell you how many out of three easy-level leetcode problems a candidate could solve in 90 minutes total.

Would that piece of information be helpful to you as you consider which candidates to invite to the first round of interviews? That is why companies do it.

A candidate who got 2 or 3 solved in 90 minutes is very likely to do much better on the rest of the interview and on the job than someone who couldn't solve any.

(I think a lot of people who can write code have a difficult time imagining just how many people both can't write code and apply for seemingly every posted SWE job listing.)

Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by vagrantJin on Friday December 09, 2022 @02:59AM (#33918834)
> Imagine you had an automated oracle

Haha. Hiring people is a job in and of itself. It needs a good eye for detail and intuition.

People are weird. Some days they write great code and hardly any serious bugs. Other days they need to look up a for-loop on MDN.

Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by vbezhenar on Thursday December 08, 2022 @03:28PM (#33912898)
There're shocking number of people who can't write simplest code.

Here's simple task that I ask on interviews: write JavaScript function which works like setTimeout and uses setTimeout internally but provides a Promise result so it can be awaited. Very few people can write that kind of code. They actually have no idea what Promise is. They want to get in frontend position. How can you write frontend code if you have no idea what Promise is.

Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by andrewflnr on Thursday December 08, 2022 @09:02PM (#33916465)
I would say that's not a great example. I wrote literally that function as a utility in my project, and it was honestly kind of tricky. There's a big gap between knowing how to use a Promise, which is necessary and closer to an "idea what a Promise is", vs how to build one from scratch, which is nice but probably not necessary for a generic frontend job. It wasn't even really necessary for me, I just wanted to be able to pause functions with an await statement.
Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by Nextgrid on Thursday December 08, 2022 @03:27PM (#33912886)
They don't measure "goodness", they merely check that the person actually knows how to write code. I disagree with them (I believe they are unnecessarily complex when it comes to the actual algorithms, and rarely mimic the real-world requirements of the job), but at least they do weed out idiots who can't even write a for loop.
Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by jrochkind1 on Thursday December 08, 2022 @03:55PM (#33913263)
Also it is very difficult to assess someone's coding qualifications in an interview -- I feel like more difficult compared to other roles, although I'm interested in opposing opinions -- especially if the person doing the assessing isn't a coder themselves, but honestly either way.
Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by baronswindle on Thursday December 08, 2022 @02:27PM (#33912070)
Is being on call really a sign of low status? I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure most doctors have an on-call schedule. And if you think doctors aren't in a high-status profession, I reckon your standards are wildly different from my own.

Long hours and little respect probably will vary from one employer to the next. However, I've been working as a developer for about ~10 years - most of it with a mid-size insurance company but the last couple with a large bank. I work longer hours than most of my colleagues, but I've rarely put in more than 50 hours in a week, and my average is probably closer to 45. And my non-engineering colleagues have always treated my fellow engineers and me with respect and an appreciation for the difficulty of what we do. If anything, they've usually been a bit too deferential.

YMMV, but I think our profession is probably among the best in the world for workers. If my child were about to enter the working world and had the ability + interest, I'd absolutely recommend this as a career.

Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by Xeronate on Thursday December 08, 2022 @03:20PM (#33912771)
I don't think on call is a sign of low status, but I think OP is correct that programming is a low status job. People respect the business guys with the big ideas, not the implementors and tbh I think that's fair. It's still one of the best jobs in terms of benefits, but you have to be willing to accept that your life as a corporate programmer is mainly carrying out someone else's ideas.
Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by Retric on Thursday December 08, 2022 @03:38PM (#33913011)
Being on call is just one sign, just as IT is more than just programming. Also the vast majority of doctors, especially the high status ones aren’t on call.

However, being on call is representative of something. Your electric company has linemen ready to respond at 2AM because they provide a service which needs to be available 24/7. However, good luck trying to contact your dermatologist, accountant, physical trainer etc at 2AM.

Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by yourapostasy on Friday December 09, 2022 @02:41AM (#33918720)
> Is being on call really a sign of low status?

For all practical purposes, above a certain level of management, you are implicitly on call all the time. However, the bar to clear to engage you gets higher the further up the leadership layers you go. A manager of a handful of teams comprising about 100 staff gets engaged for less serious fires than the CEO, but both are "on call". It might take the board of directors chartering a helicopter to get to the CEO's fly fishing cabin during the CEO's vacation if a situation warranting such presents itself, but the CEO is absolutely on call 24x7x365.

The complexity of what engages the on call person I suspect is what connotes status. Called for clearing out disk space: low status. Called for application outage that has stumped multiple technical teams: higher status. Called for a production outage impacting the next day's C-level reports that requires engaging other management: higher status. Called for heading off a shareholder proxy battle: even higher status.

Note here complexity doesn't solely reside in the technical realm, but frequently is rather a blend of technical factors, social factors, and quickly making impactful decisions in low-information situations.

Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by giraffe_lady on Thursday December 08, 2022 @01:55PM (#33911607)
It is just baffling that you think this. Have you worked in the service industry recently? Like about half of americans? Where you also work long hours, but don't have a set schedule, or health insurance, or pto. And are required to endure virtually any debasement a customer feels like exposing you to. And your behavior, appearance, comings and goings are rigidly governed by a handbook and enforced by petty tyrants enraged by also enduring all these same conditions?

Get some perspective ffs. This is the easiest, cushiest job I've ever had, and the only one where people with masters degrees often consider me their peer despite my 11th grade education.

Stop whining and join a union or something seriously. These are all minor and solvable problems.

Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by Retric on Thursday December 08, 2022 @09:42PM (#33916747)
Being cushy isn’t high status.

Many IT jobs are paid hourly, don’t get health insurance, and some even get paid minimum wage. That said, I have had plenty of people describe their retail jobs as cushy because it’s low physical labor, inside with AC, and they don’t have to think.

Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by ipaddr on Thursday December 08, 2022 @02:40PM (#33912221)
That says more about you than the average developer. You may feel you won the lottery because you don't have to stack boxes in your hometown for minimum wage because of the limitations on a grade 11 education. That person who put in the effort/time/money to get that masters might feel left out of the club of his former peers run the show.

Please get some perspective not everyone is in your situation.

Re:Low-code is not a cure for overworked IT departments by lmm on Thursday December 08, 2022 @04:42PM (#33913930)
Long hours, being on call, and not getting respect are bad things, and you should not work a job where they happen. That has absolutely zero relation to whether you're asked what you're working on.