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Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by notpushkin on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:11AM (#33882336)
> It's not explicit, but from the descriptions it seems to suggest it's performing recognition of the audio streams of what's being sung, and even supports dual streams for duets.

Just curious: what in the article makes you think that?

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by imchillyb on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:23AM (#33882574)
Not OP, but...

Look at the list of what Apple Sing includes:

Adjustable vocals: Users now have control over a song’s vocal levels. They can sing with the original artist vocals, take the lead, or mix it up on millions of songs in the Apple Music catalog.

Real-time lyrics: Users can sing along to their favorite songs with animated lyrics that dance to the rhythm of the vocals.

Background vocals: Vocal lines sung simultaneously can animate independently from the main vocals to make it easier for users to follow.

Duet view: Multiple vocalists show on opposite sides of the screen to make duets or multi-singer tracks easy to sing along to.

------

The part of the article where they state these things explicitly...

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by jaywalk on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:42AM (#33882914)
They don't state anything explicitly referring to real-time processing of the songs.

As a matter of fact, calling out "millions of songs in the Apple Music catalog" actually makes it seem like the adjustable vocals will only be available on certain songs that they've added support for.

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by brookst on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:55AM (#33883196)
It's hard for me to imagine they'd do something special to support "millions of songs" while excluding others, since the entire catalog is ~100m songs.

My guess is that it's entirely dynamic. It's hard to imagine the complexity of doing batch processing to render each song in the library, and maintain that as new songs are uploaded, and update the renders for software improvements. Better to just do it realtime.

And since classical, instrumentals, esoteric ambient stuff, death metal, etc, will probably not be supported by the algorithms, I think the "millions" refers to those that can be processed in realtime.

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by snotrockets on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @01:00PM (#33884335)
They do something special: get the necessary sign offs from legal. Apple‘s license for some content may bar it from being used that way (that’s another reason for doing it on device: could be different situation as far legal & licensing are concerned)
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by brookst on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @02:00PM (#33885236)
Sure, and a good point. I should have said they wouldn't do anything special on a song-by-song basis for millions of songs. It's not like someone's pushing the button for each song, or building a list of songs. Those that meet the criteria will be included, whether that is 10 or 10 million of them.
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by 9dev on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:49AM (#33883057)
I’d guess it’s more probable that lots of songs simply have no lyrics at all, so the claim „all songs in the Apple Music catalog“ would be factually wrong.
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by GaryPalmer on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:43AM (#33882936)
Why would you need a dedicated chip for any of that?
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by Closi on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:50AM (#33883083)
Seems like it is powered by:

> [...] an on-device machine learning algorithm that can process music in real time

Their latest apple TV includes the A15 which includes a 'neural engine' for ML, and this is also included in their latest iPhone / iPad, so that might be part of it.

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by yamtaddle on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @12:53PM (#33884217)
The divide in expectations is funny. Non-Apple-user: "ML stuff? Must be 'in the cloud'." Apple user: "ML stuff? Must use a special chip in the device."
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by notpushkin on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @08:14PM (#33889497)
And then there's me, asking why do we even need ML for that. :D
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by notpushkin on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:51AM (#33883099)
> Adjustable vocals: Users now have control over a song’s vocal levels. They can sing with the original artist vocals, take the lead, or mix it up on millions of songs in the Apple Music catalog.

I think this only requires pre-making two audio files per track, and simultaneously streaming these.

Real-time lyrics, Background vocals and Duet view are all nice features too, but the hardest part processing-wise is analysing how loud you sing into the microphone. It's just karaoke with a good UI.

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by incanus77 on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @12:32PM (#33883856)
> I think this only requires pre-making two audio files per track, and simultaneously streaming these.

That’s the understatement of the century. “this only requires […] simultaneously streaming these”

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by notpushkin on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @01:06PM (#33884452)
Well, it is indeed tricky but not requires-dedicated-chip tricky :-)
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by klipt on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @01:36PM (#33884894)
Don't movies already have stereo sound? Is going from two audio channels to four really that difficult?
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by whiddershins on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:55AM (#33883190)
They say it supports millions of songs so I doubt that’s how they are doing this.

They are likely using a sophisticated ML version of what old karaoke machines did, and removing the vocals in real-time.

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by Wowfunhappy on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @12:03PM (#33883353)
Even if they're using ML, I don't imagine they'd do it on-device. They don't even do voice recognition on-device by default.
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by Closi on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @12:13PM (#33883520)
> [Apple says it is] relying on an on-device machine learning algorithm that processes the music in real-time. The tech builds on Apple’s noise-cancellation expertise and other developments it’s made for FaceTime, the company said.

Source: https://techcrunch.com/2022/12/06/apple-music-is-getting-a-n...

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by Wowfunhappy on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @12:22PM (#33883666)
Ah, I stand corrected! I wonder why they took that approach...
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by Closi on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @12:46PM (#33884113)
Not sure - although I would imagine that it would effectively double the storage and bandwidth/data requriement for Apple Music in general if they had to send two files with equal bitrate.
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by notpushkin on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @01:09PM (#33884492)
I stand corrected as well!

Wonder why they take this approach though, as it is clearly over-engineering (if I correctly understand that the goal is just to make vocals volume adjustable).

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by dperfect on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @01:40PM (#33884945)
Maybe it's licensing? I can imagine copyright holders being squeamish about Apple processing, permanently storing, and serving heavily altered versions of their music. The difference is silly and pedantic, but by processing it in real-time during playback, one might argue it's just a filter effect like EQ.
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by Closi on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:36AM (#33894748)
> Wonder why they take this approach though, as it is clearly over-engineering (if I correctly understand that the goal is just to make vocals volume adjustable).

Depends what the other non-functional requirements were. i.e. if the NFRs were as follows:

* Cannot increase bandwidth / mobile data usage.

* Cannot impact music quality / bitrate.

* Has to work offline.

* Cannot increase on-device storage.

* Has to be responsive.

Then two audio streams might not work.

Another advantage of doing it on-device is that it doesn't actually change any of the backend architecture too. It might be a lot of change to a lot of systems for a feature which only adds a small amount of functionality - i.e. architecting your entire backend and streaming around seperating audio tracks might not be the right focus.

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by akiselev on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @12:08PM (#33883449)
iOS > Settings > Accessibility > Live Captions (beta) > Toggle Live Captions
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by Thorrez on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @12:20PM (#33883636)
That makes sense when there's audio that Apple hasn't seen before. With Apple Music Sing, it makes more sense to do that processing once in the datacenter.
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by reaperducer on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @12:35PM (#33883912)
it makes more sense to do that processing once in the datacenter.

Since Apple is all about on-device processing with so many of its features, going back-and-forth to the data center doesn't seem to be its style these days.

That's more of a Google thing.

And no one can accuse Apple of telling its advertisers that you start your day with Funky Cold Medina.

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by notpushkin on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @01:05PM (#33884425)
There's a reason Apple's preferring on-device processing: user privacy. This doesn't make sense for music (stems, lyrics) since it's not listener's data.
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by nvrspyx on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @01:40PM (#33884956)
> There's a reason Apple's preferring on-device processing: user privacy.

Is that the actual reason though? My personal impression has been that it's a combination of reasons that benefit Apple. The increased user privacy being a nice bonus for users, but not the primary reason:

1. Producing phones powerful enough for on-device ML both justifies the high price point to the general public and is a good marketing point (along with increased user privacy)

2. Avoid backend infrastructure costs. Why spend extra money on servers, maintenance, and compliance when we can just offload the work to the devices themselves since they're capable?

3. Bonus: The unplanned obsolescence for new features like the one announced is also a side effect that benefits Apple.

I do not get the impression that Apple's primary focus is to benefit users and their privacy.

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by RC_ITR on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @01:20PM (#33884646)
>There's a reason Apple's preferring on-device processing:

It makes it so you have to buy new devices sooner.

The privacy thing is a nice side-benefit and PR thing, but let's be realistic here.

EDIT: Just to remind everyone, we are literally in a thread about a new device feature that is trivial to do in the cloud, which Apple chooses to do on-device, which makes it only a feature for its newest generation of products...

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by meibo on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @01:26PM (#33884745)
Android has had on-device captions long before Apple did.
Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by Thorrez on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @03:55PM (#33886899)
There's no extra back and forth. You have to fetch the songs from the datacenter in the first place, right? So you fetch the additional data at the same time.

If Apple wanted to support this for user-provided mp3s then on-device would make sense. It doesn't sound like they support that though.

Re:Apple Introduces Apple Music Sing by Grazester on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:54AM (#33891079)
A lot of Android processing is done on the device now.