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Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by throw_m239339 on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:38AM (#33853133)
It costs me around 60€ to go from France to Switzerland by plane. It costs me way more than 60€ to go from France to Switzerland by train. This why people are taking the plane, because it's less expensive that high speed rail, nothing more. Make high speed rail less expensive and people will take the train.

Government induced free market distortion under pretense of ecology concerns is just what it is, bullshit, and a bad French habit.

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by amrocha on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:43AM (#33853169)
"under pretense of ecology concerns"

Yes, the evil government is propping up BIG TRAIN because they hate planes!!!

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by throw_m239339 on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:58AM (#33853291)
> Yes, the evil government is propping up BIG TRAIN because they hate planes!!!

Dude, instead of mocking me and sounding like an ass, learn your history. 20 years ago in that country, it was impossible to go from Region to region by bus, you had to take the train. You couldn't do Le Mans Paris by bus because bus operators were not allowed to sell inter regional trips. It's the EU that forced France to allow these. You're damn right the french government is once again rigging the game in favor of the SNCF.

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by sgu999 on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:13AM (#33853407)
You know how these buses are casually named right? Yes, indeed, it's the same Macron as the current one in charge of the government. Not sure where you get your news intake from to believe for a second that the French government is favoring the national railway company over its competitors in any way.

This instance is just a weak law intended for greenwashing purpose, nothing else.

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by JeanMarcS on Sunday December 04, 2022 @02:01PM (#33856538)
And it's the EU laws that are retranscribed here in France so what's your point exactly ?
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by JeanMarcS on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:14PM (#33859635)
It seems I made a mistake here, my bad.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by alistairSH on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:44AM (#33853179)
Why is train so much more expensive? Surely jets that cost $100s of millions, supported by massive airports, are more expensive? Seems like the market distortions are subsidies to airlines of some sort.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by the_why_of_y on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:52AM (#33853252)
Jet fuel is tax free in the EU, a huge market-distorting subsidy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene_tax

However, as of 2018, commercial kerosene consumption is currently tax exempt under the legislation of all member states of the European Union.

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by Tpt on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:59AM (#33853303)
Rail lines are massively subsidized and the French government is regularly bailing out SNCF (the national rail company). So imho it not clear that the global market distortion is in the favor of plane.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by doikor on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:43AM (#33853643)
Many airports are also subsidized. Basically every kind of transportation is subsidized to the point that figuring out the true cost is really hard.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by lores on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:46AM (#33853670)
Just like cars are heavily subsidised through motorway building. Every form of transport receives subsidies as a public good, even in countries where transport infrastructure is nominally privatised. This is one area where letting the free market decide invariably ends in disaster.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by throw0101c on Sunday December 04, 2022 @09:40AM (#33854063)
> Jet fuel is tax free in the EU, a huge market-distorting subsidy:

Also, are the externalities of jet exhaust taken into account? Is there any kind of carbon pricing in EU/France?

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by mannykannot on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:28AM (#33853529)
High-speed railway infrastructure is expensive, and so is a modern high-speed train, which is not technologically less sophisticated than an airliner.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by mojuba on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:01AM (#33853318)
I suspect in case of the Eurostar high speed train they simply follow the airline ticket pricing for the same destinations and add their "convenience tax" on top of it, usually around £50. Saying this because I've noticed that their prices fluctuate together with airline ones, and they fluctuate wildly.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by fmajid on Sunday December 04, 2022 @10:04AM (#33854292)
Yes, despite being state-owned, Eurostar operates like a classic price-maximizing monopoly. Thalys is much cheaper, I wonder what will happen now the two are merging. Hopefully Renfe will launch its competing service soon on the London to Paris route.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by tyingq on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:36AM (#33853581)
Do trains in France use the same sort of demand-driven pricing scheme airlines use? People tend to estimate airline pricing based on the cheapest price they see, which is often a fraction of the cost when demand changes.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by my123 on Sunday December 04, 2022 @09:04AM (#33853790)
> Do trains in France use the same sort of demand-driven pricing scheme airlines use?

For the high-speed trains, yes.

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by qeternity on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:48AM (#33853217)
Competition, and the subsidies are the other way around: many train companies receive them, and most airlines don't.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by throwaway049 on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:33AM (#33853560)
I'd argue that not pricing in the negative externalities of flying amounts to a subsidy.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by qeternity on Sunday December 04, 2022 @01:24PM (#33856183)
I’d agree with you except that EU airlines have to participate in the cap and trade system (ETS), whereas trains do not.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by Freak_NL on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:01AM (#33853321)
Just taking a simple example like Lausanne (Switzerland) to Paris (France)¹ shows comparable ticket prices. For an arbitrary date a few months away like April 21st, that gives me a single train ticket for €65 on a direct connection to Gare du Nord, or a train ride to Genève-Aéroport (€8) plus a plane ticket for around €65 to Orly. Cheaper plane tickets exist, but not if you have even a single backpack.

In terms of time, the train is a direct TGV that takes 3¾ hours, while the plane route means taking a train for ¾ hours, waiting at the airport for at least an hour because of security, flying for 1¼ hour, wait for another half hour at least to get out of the airport, and then spend at least half an hour getting to where you actually want to be in Paris. It takes just as long, but probably longer if you want a decent safety margin on the airport.

And that excludes the simple fact that we all have a responsibility in reducing our carbon footprint, and that for most us who have the means to travel taking a route that may be (but isn't in this case) slightly more expensive and take slightly longer is the least we can do if it is the greener alternative by far.

1: Just an example of a journey I took myself, by train.

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by dorfsmay on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:27AM (#33853518)
> for most us who have the means

That's a difficult personal choice to push on people when the super rich are traveling by private jets, fuel for international air travel isn't taxed (because bought in duty free zone technically), etc...

People want legislation for all, not just fake moral that only applies to the middle class and lower. I believe the fact that this law will affect private jet trips is a reflection that politicians are aware of this and starting to feel the pressure.

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by throwaway049 on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:30AM (#33853542)
"slightly more expensive"

Reminds me of Caroline Lucas, when asked about her air travel, saying there should be a focus on taxing aviation fuel.

What this all amounts to is travel should be restricted to the wealthy.

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by mantas on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:38AM (#33853600)
And taxing aviation fuel will make the rich pay trough the nose for their „privilege“. Which is good.

What do you propose?

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by throwaway049 on Sunday December 04, 2022 @02:50PM (#33857089)
No. It's not good. It enables the rich to travel while locking out others. A fair system would ration access to a scarce resource based on need.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by midoridensha on Sunday December 04, 2022 @09:17PM (#33860608)
Perhaps there should be a hefty aviation fuel tax that works inversely: basically, the more you buy at once (per plane), the lower the tax is, by a very large amount.

So, if you're refueling an A380 super-jumbo or a 777, your fuel tax is very low, because those planes need a LOT of fuel. If you're refueling a 737, it'll be significantly higher, to penalize short routes. If you're refueling a small private jet, it'll be huge.

Basically, big jets that carry hundreds of passengers will get the lowest fuel tax this way, and airlines will be forced to prioritize moving people as efficiently as possible.

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by mantas on Monday December 05, 2022 @03:57AM (#33863114)
More fuel is more pollution though.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by midoridensha on Monday December 05, 2022 @07:54PM (#33874322)
No, it's not. Flying all those people on smaller planes would use far more fuel and cause more pollution.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by mantas on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @02:56AM (#33876966)
Not flying would be best :)
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by midoridensha on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @03:12AM (#33877063)
That's not feasible. You can't cross oceans in any reasonable timeframe without an airplane. Even long land trips don't really make sense by train, over I'm guessing 1000km.

My whole point here was to devise a taxation strategy to discourage passengers and airlines from flying short routes, and leave those to trains instead, reserving airplanes for the much longer routes where they're much less avoidable, and also to encourage more centralization of air travel from large cities and their airports, so that larger numbers of passengers are funneled onto a smaller number of very large jets for those intercontinental trips. Passengers would then just have to take trains to/from the smaller cities. Larger planes are far more efficient in terms of fuel per passenger per mile; much of the fuel burned in a flight is used on take-off and getting to altitude anyway, so maximizing distance and plane size means minimizing fuel per passenger-mile.

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by mantas on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @05:53AM (#33877941)
Well, then don't cross oceans then. Travel long distances rarely. It's not a human right to get cheaply to the other side of the globe. And with recent breakthroughs in electronic communications, we don't have much need for vast majority of travelling. Close-but-living-far-away relatives dying or getting married happens only so rarely.

If we want to fight pollution big time, ultimately we have to reduce amount of traveling. At least till we get nuclear fission working and batteries with good energy density. Entirely new ways to make trains and planes themselves.

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by midoridensha on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @10:00PM (#33890153)
Sure, we'll just all go back to medieval ways of living! That sounds like a great idea! Why travel when you can just stay at home and play video games all day!
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by mantas on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:35AM (#33890978)
Medieval way of living with internet and video calling? Sorry, this doesn't seem like medieval at all.

You know there's lots of things to do outside without flying tens of thousands kilometers, right?

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by midoridensha on Thursday December 08, 2022 @09:20PM (#33916571)
If you want to just stay at home all the time, feel free.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by mantas on Friday December 09, 2022 @01:08AM (#33918106)
Not flying long distance does not mean staying home. Unless you live on a 500m radius island in the middle of an ocean with next land mass thousands of kilometers away.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by mantas on Monday December 05, 2022 @03:56AM (#33863109)
Air traveling (and traveling in general) is not some sort of human rights where everyone MUST afford to travel. It is a scarce resource, especially with air traveling pollution. And high taxation is a good way allocate a very scarce resource.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:41AM (#33891015)
I took the train (TGV) from Lausanne to Nantes once, the hardest part was the train station transfer via bus in Paris.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by einpoklum on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:22AM (#33853479)
> This why people are taking the plane, because it's less expensive that high speed rail, nothing more.

This is often true. But - not always. Depends on which endpoints. Sometimes it's speed, sometimes convenience, sometime price.

> free market distortion

1. Markets are not free. They are based on violent coercion of private ownership of land, factories, service providing corporations etc.

2. Markets are always "distorted", in the sense that they don't just occur naturally.

3. I can't say for certain whether this specific measure is appropriate or well-intentioned, but - emissions need to be reduced drastically over the next several years; and not just in one sector of the economy. So in _some_ way, people do need to change their habits in favor of using more carbon-frugal modes of travel.

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by ulfw on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:43AM (#33853639)
What does France to Switzerland even mean? They border each other. You could walk.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by OJFord on Sunday December 04, 2022 @09:49AM (#33854142)
I would think it obviously means between significant cities (ones with airports, at least, clearly) in each... Paris to Zurich or whatever.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by ulfw on Sunday December 04, 2022 @11:28PM (#33861463)
Yea but the whatever part is what makes no sense. Sorry.

Paris-Zurich is very different from Lyon-Geneva

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:47AM (#33891050)
You can cross the border by foot in the Geneva airport, or used to be able to before Switzerland was part of the Schengen.
Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by rsync on Sunday December 04, 2022 @03:05PM (#33857279)
Forgive me, but your comment drops below any reasonable threshold of HN guidelines and I am forced to use strong language like “absurd” and “clownish” to describe what you’re asserting …

The overriding market distortion, which trumps every other variable here, is the zero value given to any environmental externalities coming from air travel.

In addition, both CH and FR have massive governmental subsidies for their national carriers and the operation of their airports.

Which is to say:

you’re swimming in free market distortions so deeply you’ll never come up for air … and you’re decrying this one ?

Seriously: grow up.

Re:France bans short haul domestic flights in favour of trai... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @12:46AM (#33891038)
FR and Air France maybe, but Swiss Air is now owned by Lufthansa.