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Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by paulhauggis on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @09:25AM (#3377567)
"Sweden wasn’t a very hospitable place to do this. “Most early stage investors were not interested in investing in a Swedish company, due to local law, structure, and communication,” Sullivan says."

I would imagine high taxes and government regulation had something to do with this.

Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by pavlov on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @09:47AM (#3377629)
That is an old cliché that doesn't hold true anymore. The US doesn't have substantially lower taxes or less government regulation than Nordic countries. (If anything, the regulations for private stock investments in the US are much more restrictive and complicated.)

The difference between the countries' investment and startup growth environments goes much deeper and can't be easily summarized by simple political sloganry.

Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by paulhauggis on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @01:26PM (#3378487)
"That is an old cliché that doesn't hold true anymore. The US doesn't have substantially lower taxes or less government regulation than Nordic countries. (If anything, the regulations for private stock investments in the US are much more restrictive and complicated.)"

Since you mentioned Nordic countries in general, let's look at Norway:

1) 28% flat tax on income (additional 9% on gross income if you earn between $73,641 - $119,662 and 12% on anything larger than this. 2) VAT on most things you purchase (25%) 3) 1% wealth tax, including your assets. 4) All tax returns are publicized. So everyone knows how much you make. This is a violation of privacy.

source: http://www.davemanuel.com/2009/09/08/the-norwegian-tax-syste...

It's not just corporate taxes that need to be factored in here. If I'm a VC, why would I invest where everything is going to cost 3X or 4X as much.

There also has to be a reason why there is almost no startup scene in Nordic countries. If taxes were great and the government made it really easy for businesses to startup and flourish, VC would be flocking there.

another article: http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say...

"As a Norwegian, he pays nearly 50 percent of his income to the federal government, along with a substantial additional tax that works out to roughly 1 percent of his total net worth."

"And that's just what he pays directly. Payroll taxes in Norway are double those in the U.S. Sales taxes, at 25 percent, are roughly triple."

This article is filled with reasons why I would never want to start a business here.

Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by pavlov on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @03:29PM (#3379009)
If I'm a VC, why would I invest where everything is going to cost 3X or 4X as much.

By the same logic, no sane VC would invest in a Silicon Valley startup because engineers there are 3-4x more expensive than most other tech hubs.

The Norwegian employee pays a lot of tax, but actually a lot of that money goes to services that directly save money for you (the employer). For example, you don't need to pay for the employee's health insurance, dental care or pension plan, since these are covered by the state.

There also has to be a reason why there is almost no startup scene in Nordic countries.

That's nonsense. By European standards, the startup scene is great at least in Sweden and Finland.

Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by paulhauggis on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @09:29PM (#3380075)
"The Norwegian employee pays a lot of tax, but actually a lot of that money goes to services that directly save money for you (the employer). For example, you don't need to pay for the employee's health insurance, dental care or pension plan, since these are covered by the state."

You can get a great plan in the US for around $500-$600/month (an okay plan is considerably less). 30-40%+ more of my income is considerably more than this.

"By the same logic, no sane VC would invest in a Silicon Valley startup because engineers there are 3-4x more expensive than most other tech hubs."

They are more expensive because they are the best talent around.

"That's nonsense. By European standards, the startup scene is great at least in Sweden and Finland."

Compared to what? The statup scene in Michigan is great compared to that of Iowa or Kansas.

Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by pjsullivan3 on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @09:52AM (#3377647)
You are right. Corporate taxes are no worse off. However, US investors don't want to touch stuff there because they don't completely understand local law...
Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by niklas_a on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @10:08AM (#3377694)
That didn't stop Sequoia from investing $155M in Klarna :)
Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by pjsullivan3 on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @10:39AM (#3377814)
What a sick ass round that was....
Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by pjsullivan3 on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @09:42AM (#3377612)
it actually not so much the taxation that costs much for a company, its the "social fees". We will still keep a development team over there, but social fees can add 31% to an employees gross salary. Then the employee still has to have around 30% of tax removed as well.
Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by maukdaddy on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @10:15AM (#3377720)
I hate to tell you, but by the time you take federal, FICA, state, and local taxes out, the average American pays damn close to 30% too. And that's not counting the employee portion of healthcare that adds another percent or two.
Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by paulhauggis on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @01:32PM (#3378511)
30% is not bad.

In Norway it's over 50% after everything is said and done..and this isn't include the 20% VAT that is paid on almost everything, the 1% "net wealth tax" (which includes real estate, cars, etc), and any other tax you might have to pay.

Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by pg on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @01:36PM (#3378528)
Do you have to pay this 1% tax on stock you own in companies you've founded? I.e. would the founder of a successful new startup that had such a high valuation in its last round that his stock was worth $50 million on paper have to somehow come up with half a million dollars every year to pay taxes?
Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by drx on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @10:07PM (#3380175)
Out of curiosity I researched this a little. Sweden abandoned the wealth tax in 2007.

However, the neighboring Norway has a 1.1% combined wealth tax on income above about $350k. And according to [1] "from the income year 2008 the full market value of shares reg- istered on the stock exchange are in the shareholder’s wealth, whereas unlisted shares are valued based on the company’s taxable wealth".

Other countries that have the wealth tax are France, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Netherlands and India. Some of them have limits on the wealth tax in place, e.g. in France the amount cannot exceed 50% of annual revenues.

[1] http://www.kpmg.no/arch/_img/9585751.pdf

Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by pg on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @10:22PM (#3380216)
I realize this isn't your fault, but KPMG's explanation is pretty question-begging. Anyone happen to know how the "taxable wealth" of a startup would be calculated?
Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by drx on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @11:38PM (#3380409)
"10.02 - Business taxes" at the Official Statistics Office of Norway: http://www.ssb.no/metadata/conceptvariable/vardok/1441/en

"Taxable wealth is the value of the company's assets reduced by debt, as of 1 January in the assessment year."

This doesn't necessarily mean that the same definition applies at the tax office and/or that it applies to startups, though.

Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by mbesto on Saturday December 24, 2011 @12:45PM (#3389270)
pg- If you're interested in tax laws for startups in Sweden, let me know. I have a good friend who is in the process of IPO'n his startup and is very "money conscious".
Re:Why European startup had to move to USA to fulfill its vi... by patrickgzill on Wednesday December 21, 2011 @10:46AM (#3377839)
If you are looking for outside investment, you either have to completely forgo American funds, or, you have to do everything the way the SEC wants anyways - the SEC claims jurisdiction anytime American-sourced money goes into any kind of investment.

So either you are in USA, where lawyers and accountants deal with SEC requirements everyday; or, you are in Sweden, and have to do things the way Sweden wants you, then, also, do things the way the SEC wants as well. Simply easier and possibly cheaper to be in the USA.