News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by 0xfffafaCrash on Thursday November 24, 2022 @10:54AM (#33732724)
I don’t think Proof of Work should be illegal anywhere. The value is not in what is computed but in what properties it gives to the system.

What should be addressed though is the problem of negative externalities not being priced in. This is not specific to energy usage of PoW or any other use of energy. Those producing emissions should categorically be required to foot the bill for repairing any damage done and those taxes should be put to use to that end. Once priced in, many things that otherwise commonize costs but privatize profits may prove to be not worth pursuing.

If the societal good done by certain things is worth the negative externalities, those can be explicitly and transparently funded through subsidies which offset some portion of the costs.

Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by woodruffw on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:04AM (#33732856)
At least in the US, we’ve yet to see any of the social good promised to us by PoW schemes (or cryptocurrencies, more generally). Instead, we’ve seen a lot of diminished trust in civic and financial institutions, plus a lot of unnecessary carbon emissions.

Given the depth and breath of the costs, banning the use of fossil fuels in PoW schemes doesn’t seem particularly unreasonable. Especially given the broader social goal of reducing fossil fuel use wherever possible.

Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by 0xfffafaCrash on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:22AM (#33733076)
I’m not arguing about the value of crypto here. Personally I think blockchains are vastly overvalued and it is mostly hype/speculation and fraudsters using FOMO are rampant. That’s a separate issue though and should be treated as such.

There are plenty of things I think people over-value. I may think that buying cars or living in places where you would need them is overvalued, but I won’t argue for banning those. People can form their own opinions on how much they value different things. They shouldn’t however profit from not cleaning up their own messes and having others foot the bill.

Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by germandiago on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:45AM (#33733345)
Blockchain is a solid technology for distributed stuff. The technology itself is solid. Even Paypal owner said and faced people in Davos forum when they challenged him to say it would be their bet in the future.
Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by woodruffw on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:07PM (#33733609)
What exactly is the objection, then? This bill hasn’t banned PoW schemes; it only restricts them to power sources that are easier (from a policy perspective) to price externalities for.
Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by RedlineTriad on Friday November 25, 2022 @08:36AM (#33742221)
I think I have seen a CTF before where you have to solve a quick PoW to get access to the server. Just as an anti-botting measure.

So there are certainly uses for PoW, but I agree they are few and far between.

Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by RedlineTriad on Friday November 25, 2022 @08:41AM (#33742263)
I actually just remembered where I saw it, it was from a LiveOverflow video:

https://youtu.be/Vgdhlh6evjI?t=51

Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by nells on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:02AM (#33732838)
There’s absolutely no way to compute the price of the damage that every ton of CO2 is going to do, so whatever value you choose is going to be arbitrary and ultimately unfair.
Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by 0xfffafaCrash on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:07AM (#33732901)
What’s the cost of sequestering each ton of CO2? $30? $90? Prohibitively high for some purposes? Well that seems like a relatively good place to start.
Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by nells on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:50AM (#33733390)
You can also price it at $0 and NOT ban it.
Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by 0xfffafaCrash on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:52AM (#33733420)
Sure, but that does nothing to help with the tragedy of the commons caused by unaddressed negative externalities…
Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by nells on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:54AM (#33733450)
This is more like the politician's syllogism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician%27s_syllogism

Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by 0xfffafaCrash on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:05PM (#33733584)
Except it actually addresses a serious problem on two fronts

1) reducing the ability to profit off of actions that cause environmental damage thereby aligning the market interest to reduce such actions

2) funding the investment in reversing the damage

whereas your suggestion above is doing literally nothing to help…

Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by piva00 on Thursday November 24, 2022 @01:27PM (#33734638)
And why would you price it at $0 if it's already known it does cause damages. Just because you can't fairly price it doesn't mean it costs zero, that's an absurd logic...
Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by danuker on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:09AM (#33732931)
A fair minimum tax is one that ensures we stay below catastrophic per-capita emissions, as estimated by the IPCC, created exactly for understanding climate change.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergovernmental_Panel_on_Cli...

Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by germandiago on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:48AM (#33733379)
Why I have to believe this report when I do not see even accurate weather forecasts one week ahead in many cases?

I really think that the possibility of obtaining the wrong conclusions are much higher than getting it right, yet the consequences of putting a ton of restrictions is really harmful for many people, especially in developing countries.

Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by felurx on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:06PM (#33733592)
Regarding weather and climate: Those aren't the same thing.

Maybe you could compare it to dice. It's very hard to predict on what number a dice is going to land. But if you throw it a lot of times, you'll eventually start to see the distribution converge somewhere. And when you then take a drill and make a hole in the side of the dice, or glue something to its side or whatever, and then throw it a lot of times again, you'll see that the distribution changes. Also, you can make reasonable statements about those developments. "If I make it heavier on the side opposite six, I think I'll start seeing more sixes, because the side opposite is pulled down more by gravity". You don't need to be able to predict the short-term outputs of a system to see changes in its long-term trends, and you can absolutely reason about and possibly predict those long-term changes.

Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by germandiago on Friday November 25, 2022 @02:12AM (#33740022)
Maybe you are right guys, Idk. But I am skeptical, not of the change in the climate. That is a fact. But of the whole set of things (full model) that provokes it.

I think it is a really difficult thing to guess. And anyways, even if it is not, how can you stop it if China, India and US say no to it bc there is no current technology to replace?

We could be in the situation where a lot of restrictions are set and later the guess is wrong. More expensive energy means putting a ton of people back into poverty, literally.

Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by danuker on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:53AM (#33733428)
This report is the outcome of thousands of scientists collaborating.

What it predicts for developing countries is disaster, which we already see. More droughts in the summer combined with floods in spring/autumn.

This leads to food insecurity and ecosystem disruption, which will be more harmful than not doing anything.

Weather is hard to predict short-term, but the long-term trends (i.e. climate) are visible.

Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by 0xfffafaCrash on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:58AM (#33733503)
Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by actuallyalys on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:03PM (#33733563)
Why do I have to believe my math teacher when he says he knows the distribution of rolling a pair of dice 1000 times when he cannot even predict the next roll of the dice?
Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by felurx on Thursday November 24, 2022 @12:07PM (#33733604)
Dang, you beat me to it!
Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by germandiago on Friday November 25, 2022 @02:06AM (#33739991)
Then the weather forecast should be guessable all the time also I guess. It is not.

But the dice experiment is: one leaves variables out of the model bc of its overwhelming complexity for what we know so far.

No, I do not buy this, vote me negative but I do not. If it was true, the weather forecast should be guessable.

Re:Proof of work is temporarily illegal in New York by kelseyfrog on Thursday November 24, 2022 @11:22AM (#33733082)
Right, this includes pricing it at zero which is what we're doing now.